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dino77
06-23-09, 02:40 PM
That would be from 1964-summer 1966. Thought this would be an interesting topic. But it's hard to pick only one. These would be my 5.

* Testify (1964) with the Isley Brothers. His first recording? A fascinating document and a rockin' tune, with unmistakably fluid Hendrix lines and funky riffs.

* Drivin' South (1965) with The Squires. An early showpiece, showing a master in the Buddy Guy mode. A plus for the funky club atmosphere.

* My Diary (1965) with Rosa Lee Brooks. A good tune with good vocals and Jimi in Curtis Mayfield mode. Or another Curtis Mayfield-inspired tune, "She's a Fox" with the Icemen.

* Hornets Nest (1966) with The Squires. Cause it's one of Jimi's first released compositions, and the whole band, not only Jimi, is cooking.

* Wipe the Sweat with Lonnie Youngblood. A really funky tune. Mostly one chord, but dig that rhythm guitar.

Ayler
06-23-09, 04:23 PM
I would say "California Night" aka "Travelin' To California". Jimi's really close to the UK ARE version of "Red House" on those two takes.

ap0llo
06-23-09, 04:25 PM
My personal fave is Drivin' South. Jimi lays down some pretty great licks and I imagine it was similar to what Chas Chandler saw the first time he watched Jimi play.

purple jim
06-24-09, 01:51 AM
Studio:
Don't Accuse Me
Knock Yourself Out

Live:
California Night
Drivin' South
Bleeding Heart
I'm A Man

Jimi_Uchihaeyez
06-24-09, 01:58 AM
Driving South
My Diary
California Night
Bleeding Heart

deek57
06-24-09, 04:17 AM
California Night
Bleeding Heart
Hard Night(let the good times roll?) instr..
Drivin' South
Killing Floor
(ive got a) Sweet Little Angel

All Live at Georges Club.

stplsd
06-24-09, 12:44 PM
So Curtis Knight and the Squires appear to have it.

But come on guys, there is no such song as 'California Night' this is Curtis Knight ('Night' geddit?) misleadingly re-titling Albert King's original composition 'Travellin' to California' so he can outrageeously claim the BMI publishing for it. Check it out! Jimi is the singer on both versions of this, what is Knights contribution - none that I can hear!

'Drivin' South' is merely Jimi's take on Albert Collins' 'Thaw Out' come on give him the credit!

Of course all versions of Jimi's 'I'm A Man' are actually composites of the original Bo Diddley song with some additional lyrics from Muddy Waters' humerous reply version - 'Mannish Boy', and one of the two 'Knights' versions has three added verses, one is the 'Two Old Maids' verse much later released (but very possibly well known earlier from 'party tapes' & live shows) on Chick Willis' 'Stoop Down Baby' but almost identical with this rather than other earlier R&B songs which also used part of this verse. The other two raunchy verses are possibly by Jimi, if not no-one's put forward another composer.

'Hard Night'/'Let the Good times Roll' is actually an instrumental/band intro which is basically 'Come On (part 1)' by Earl King, which he later released as a vocal version on ELL.

'How Would You Feel' I think is worthy of consideration as it indirectly, but very obviously refers to Rosa Parks' refusal to sit at the back of the bus which basically sparked the civil rights movement, who was doing the dirty work in the US's increased escalation of it's involvement in Vietnam, the continuing segregation in parts of the South, and the music is basically 'His Bobness' Rolling Stone. It also features a quite early use of the fuzz pedal and is very obviously as much Jimi's as Curtis' composition, recorded on multi-track stereo too. Jimi & producer Chalpin both claiming that all instruments except drums were played by Jimi. A quite severely overlooked statement of intent and what he stood for by Jimi really. Jimi knew the score, as Curtis, along with many of Jimi's early musical associates - Little Richard etc. were from Georgia in the South and Jimi spent a considerable amount of time based there as well as in Nashville.

What about 'Bright Lights Big City' which to me is so obviously Jimi imitating Jimmy Reed's vocal style, (you can hear Jimi talking normally in the background) It is noted by several people that Jimi enjoyed imitating other peoples voices for fun eg Little Richard/Harlem 'Queens' (there are also several recordings of him using these various imitations/parodies). This is also a tune he casually recorded with (almost definately) R&B artist Mr Wiggles on vocals (who also appears to be imitating/parodying Little Richard/Harlem 'Queens' in a style similar (but funnier) to Jimi's during the prior 'conversation'.

The playing and other input he had on most songs he was recorded on around 65/66 are exceptional for the their time.

dino77
06-24-09, 03:02 PM
Yes, had a listen to the Albert King tune a few years ago, and it's the same song. Strangely, the "Benjamin Franklin studios" book still list it as a variation on Memphis Slim's "Everyday I have the blues".
Agree about "How would you feel", as much Jimi's tune as Knight's.
Wonder how many more Squires tunes is all Jimi except drums and vocals.

stplsd
06-24-09, 06:29 PM
^
Yeah, the only similarity is that he sings the line "Everyday I have the blues" but I'm sure that's been said more than a few times, and is not unique to Slim's tune. Albert did record a version of the Memphis Slim song, which just makes it more obvious that 'Travellin' to California' is Albert's own composition.

How would you feel may be the only 'all Jimi' (except drums & vocal) tune, as this was supposedly the first tune he & Curtis recorded together: http://www.earlyhendrix.com/curtis-knight-and-the-squires-intro.html

stplsd
06-24-09, 06:37 PM
^
'How Would You Feel' is also his first label credit "Arr. By Jimmy Hendrix" (more like co-composer I would think)

I love the Curtis Knight & the Squires funky version (in original stereo) of 'Satisfaction' (without the late crap extra drum bass & ryhm tambourinestereo overdubs) Jimi on backing vocal, George Bragg on drums. Truly shit mix mind you - turn it up!

stplsd
06-24-09, 07:50 PM
Jimi - Curtis Knight era? 'Thaw Out' etc. etc. etc.... (almost any song, not them all, but nearly) Ike Turner, indeed! Clapton, Beck, Page, Robertson, Bloomfield anyone! -eat your feckin hearts out! Imagine seeing the Squires/Blue Flame in '65/'66 in the hippest night spots: Cheetah, Ondines, Purple Onion, Cafe A Go Go etc.. blow your f-ing tits off! compared with anything else on offer: Stones, Beatles - phuuh! Well, of course, apart from the most mind blowing band of the time - His Bobness & the Hawks, but we're talkin' about another planet there, one that exploded about the same time as Jimi's ship took off. Conspiracy of silence by those who were worried I'd say? "Oh feck! Chas has brought him over here! Well better show the old Brit stiff upper lip and make the best of it, it's really not cricket though old boy." Some of the biggest live bands in 1966 UK: Geno Washington & the Ram Jam Band (black US singer with a white band), then there was (the biggest reggae star until Bob Marley in 1970) - Jimmy Cliff (Jamaican, white backing group) and another very popular live act Garnet Mimms (black US singer, Scottish [sunshine - go red, then very white again] band 'The Senate') etc. etc... Let's face it JHE were nothing unusual in this respect at the time in the UK.

Chris M
06-25-09, 03:33 AM
My faves are Have Mercy (short and sweet solo), She's a Fox and My Diary. The She's a Fox intro floors me. Anyone notice John Legend totally ripped that song off?

dino77
06-25-09, 04:02 AM
My faves are Have Mercy (short and sweet solo), She's a Fox and My Diary. The She's a Fox intro floors me. Anyone notice John Legend totally ripped that song off?

Yeah, he sampled it. As did Amy Winehouse on the "Back to black" album. Can't remember, but I think one of the versions retains Jimi's guitar part.

stplsd
06-25-09, 05:51 AM
That would be Covay's 'Mercy, Mercy'? I take it you are talking about this, rather than Knight's cover? If it's Covay's the jury is still out on whether it's Hendrix playing on that one, according to Covay it's mostly Ronald Miller:
https://www.jerryosborne.com/12-3-07.htm
Ever notice how Mick Jagger totally imitated Covay's vocal style?

deek57
06-25-09, 03:36 PM
Here's some Curtis Knight studio things that i find interesting.
Gloomy Monday.
Oddball.
My Best Freind.
Don't Accuse Me. For the solo.
And a couple of 8/9 minute jam things that go under various names depending on the release.....On the SPV six pack complete PPX they are called....
Mercy Lady Day and Second Time Around.

dino77
06-25-09, 03:51 PM
Ace Hall apparently has some Hendrix tapes from 1965 he wants to release. Hope a) it's not the usual Curtis Knight tapes
b) legal "complications" don't get in the way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEwc1cgVErg
http://www.perfspot.com/video2/video.asp?id=2955508353&b=

Someone should interview the guy, cause he played and recorded together with Jimi with Knight, Youngblood and Don Covay.

stplsd
06-25-09, 07:49 PM
^
Many thanks for this, most interesting. Definitely needs to be interviewed much more fully.

drivinsouth
06-26-09, 01:57 PM
what about "no such animal "? not on cd yet ????

deek57
06-26-09, 07:36 PM
what about "no such animal "? not on cd yet ????

I think, if i remember correctly No Such Animal turned out not to feature Hendrix....I'm almost certain that's the case.

dino77
06-26-09, 07:41 PM
I think, if i remember correctly No Such Animal turned out not to feature Hendrix....I'm almost certain that's the case.

No, it's genuine. A publishing contract for this song was auctioned some years ago, with Jimi's signature, from 1966. He is the sole composer, if i remeber correctly.

Roland Stone
06-27-09, 12:37 AM
Am I the only one who likes "Help Me"? I think it has a cookin' groove even though Jimi's guitar presence is almost subliminal.

drivinsouth
06-27-09, 07:28 AM
ok thanks " no such animal "was splitted .pt 1 & 2 on single ..
but never seen it on other place ,,,

purple jim
06-27-09, 07:35 AM
"No Such Animal" did turn up on the album "Cosmic Turnaround" which was otherwise made up of what looks like fake stuff.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9122/cosmic.gif (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/cosmic.gif/)

01 - No Such Animal (part 1)
02 - Tomorrow
03 - No Such Animal (part 2)
04 - Come On Baby I
05 - Come On Baby II
06 - I Love My Baby
07 - Down Now
08 - Louisville

Chris M
06-27-09, 10:05 PM
That would be Covay's 'Mercy, Mercy'? I take it you are talking about this, rather than Knight's cover? If it's Covay's the jury is still out on whether it's Hendrix playing on that one, according to Covay it's mostly Ronald Miller:
https://www.jerryosborne.com/12-3-07.htm
Ever notice how Mick Jagger totally imitated Covay's vocal style?

I don't know, we have several sources that say the solo is Jimi (talking about the Covay recording). Then Steve Cropper has said for years that Jimi told him he played on it. Then there is the JHE versions as well and the solo sounds just like our man..

stplsd
06-28-09, 03:59 PM
Not denying the possibility that Jimi plays the lead, but that's not to say that it's definitely him. Unfortunately none of these "sources" that say Jimi played on this were actually 'there' and I'm not sure that they say he was playing the "solo" either, these "sources" seem to have merely repeated Covay's earlier comment that Jimi played on it. Covay's latest comment "appears" to clear up exactly what Jimi did play on it - ie not a lot, he could always be mistaken, but he sounds quite definite. Mind you Miller is only credited with playing bass elsewhere. Unfortunately some of Ace Hall's story sounds a bit dodgy and self promoting. Ace Hall is only credited with some backing vocal on some tracks elsewhere. Would either really remember after all these years?

dino77
06-29-09, 02:24 AM
George Clemons was apparently at the session and claims Jimi was there. The only problem is he says they all met up when he, Jimi and Curtis Knight were living together. Most sources, including Jimi himself, state that he and Knight first met on October 5, 1965.

If you listen to the rest of the tracks on the "Mercy" lp, the guitar parts have a similar style to "Mercy mercy". And Jimi was on tour with the Isley Brothers when those tracks were recorded, in October 1964. I'd guess he's playing the "dampened string" rhythm part if he is on the track.

Chris M
06-29-09, 03:23 PM
George Clemons was apparently at the session and claims Jimi was there. The only problem is he says they all met up when he, Jimi and Curtis Knight were living together. Most sources, including Jimi himself, state that he and Knight first met on October 5, 1965.

If you listen to the rest of the tracks on the "Mercy" lp, the guitar parts have a similar style to "Mercy mercy". And Jimi was on tour with the Isley Brothers when those tracks were recorded, in October 1964. I'd guess he's playing the "dampened string" rhythm part if he is on the track.

I don't know, none of the guitar solos sound like the Have Mercy solo. Listen to the solo on the Covay track and then the 2/67 Flamingo Club version. That is the same guitar player IMO.

Chris M
06-29-09, 11:22 PM
And Jimi was on tour with the Isley Brothers when those tracks were recorded, in October 1964..

Just checked the Early Hendrix site and it looks like we don't have any firm dates for the Isley tour so the Mercy session could have been before the tour or recorded during a break.

dino77
06-30-09, 01:48 AM
Just checked the Early Hendrix site and it looks like we don't have any firm dates for the Isley tour so the Mercy session could have been before the tour or recorded during a break.

I was talking about the main sessions for the "Mercy" lp during first week of October 1964, not the session for the song "Mercy Mercy". Jimi was on the road during the first week of October, when the lp, except for "Mercy mercy" and another track, was recorded.

stplsd
06-30-09, 09:34 AM
The only record of Clemons being on this is Clemons himself, as far as I can see. He doesn't appear to mentioned elsewhere?

backfromthestorm
10-31-09, 08:43 PM
Hush Now.

Kinda reminds me of STPWLSD

stplsd
10-31-09, 09:01 PM
I think, if i remember correctly No Such Animal turned out not to feature Hendrix....I'm almost certain that's the case.

You are the 1st to claim this (highly unfu**ing likely), unless you have...?

stplsd
10-31-09, 09:11 PM
Hush Now.

Kinda reminds me of STPWLSD

Haven't considered this, but nice tits though!

Ayler
11-01-09, 08:22 AM
Hush Now is not a pre-Experience recording as it was recorded in august 67!

backfromthestorm
11-01-09, 10:46 AM
Hush Now is not a pre-Experience recording as it was recorded in august 67!

Oops, its on an old curtis knight lp of mine, forgot its from that odd session of theirs after he'd made it over here, yeah your right.. I guess the use of a wah gives that away too. I'll think of another one.

purple jim
11-01-09, 02:48 PM
Hush Now. Kinda reminds me of STPWLSD

When Jimi recorded this with Knight (in the summer of 1967 as Ayler points out) it was around the same time as the recording of "Burning Of The Midnight Lamp" and "STPLSD", two songs on which he introduced his wah wah playing. He obviously had the b-side in his head during the Knight session.
It is also similar to the intro to "1983" (the same applies to what became known as "Love Love").

dino77
05-18-10, 05:04 PM
Didn't know where to put this really. Apparently Lonnie Youngblood has sued various parties for copyright infringement, likely the reason is the inlclusion of "Georiga blues" on the Scorsese cd.

<table class="standard" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;" cellpadding="8" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="30%">RFC Case Number:</td> <td valign="top" width="70%">C-L10-2172M</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Court Case Number:</td> <td valign="top">2:10-cv-02172-DMC -CCC</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">File Date:</td> <td valign="top">Thursday, April 29, 2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Plaintiff:</td> <td valign="top"> Lonnie Youngblood
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Plaintiff Counsel: </td> <td valign="top"> Richard E. Wenger of Hedinger & Lawless LLC
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Defendant:</td> <td valign="top"> Martin Scorsese
Experience Hendrix LLC
Janie Hendrix
MCA Records, Inc.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Cause:</td> <td valign="top">17:101 Copyright Infringement</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Court:</td> <td valign="top">New Jersey District Court</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Judge: </td> <td valign="top"> Judge Dennis M. Cavanaugh
Referred To: Magistrate Judge Claire C. Cecchi
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"></td> <td valign="top">
</td></tr></tbody></table>

ilovejimi
05-18-10, 08:05 PM
when I was a kid i bought the Album Free Spirit which featured House of the Rising Sun-- ive since found out that it has no Hendrix involvement. Anybody know the group that did that version on Free Spirt?

stplsd
05-18-10, 09:23 PM
when I was a kid i bought the Album Free Spirit which featured House of the Rising Sun-- ive since found out that it has no Hendrix involvement. Anybody know the group that did that version on Free Spirt?

For info on any pre-Hendrix material, curtis Knight, Lonnie Youngblood etc check earlyhendrix.com - saves others having to do it for you - it's nearly all there;-)

for the above look under Lonnie Youngblood > Fakes

ilovejimi
05-18-10, 09:25 PM
For info on any pre-Hendrix material, curtis Knight, Lonnie Youngblood etc check earlyhendrix.com - saves others having to do it for you - it's nearly all there;-)

for the above look under Lonnie Youngblood > Fakes

Thanks- yikes

ilovejimi
05-18-10, 10:14 PM
when I was a kid i bought the Album Free Spirit which featured House of the Rising Sun-- ive since found out that it has no Hendrix involvement. Anybody know the group that did that version on Free Spirt?

okay here is the answer for those whom may be interested: (this was my fav pre exeperience song- House of the Rising Sun until i found out it wasnt Hendrix):
Hermon Hitson has played with some of the biggest names in music history such as Bobby Womack, Wilson Pickett, Major Lance, Jackie Wilson, The Drifters, The Shirelles, Joe Tex, The Midnighters and others. He still plays on a regular basis at local clubs is his current hometown of Atlanta, Georgia. In 2006, Hermon released his latest album entitled, "Yesterday, Today & Tomorrow." He also recorded at LIVE album at the well-known Atlanta music venue The Earl in 2007. For more information about Hermon and his life in the music business, please see the great interview conducted by Colin Dilnot, the Managing Director of Keeping Soul Alive and owner of the "Dark End of the Street" Soul music blog at: http://darkendofthestreet.blogspot.com/2006/11/hermon-hitson-interview.html Hermon Hitson is also intimately linked to one of the greatest guitar players ever, Mr. Jimi Hendrix. The production of the Hendrix album, "Free Spirit", was originally to be released as a Herman Hitson work! The album was produced by Mr. Johnny Brantley and Mr. Lee Moses. ALL of the lead guitar and lead vocals that appeared on the original album "Free Spirit," were done by Hermon Hitson, with the exception of Lee Moses as added vocals on "Hey Leroy." Hermon never received any credit for this work! http://www.myspace.com/hermonhitson

dino77
05-19-10, 02:18 AM
Hermon is a great southern soul singer. That's not apparent on the "fakes", but check out his real stuff like "You're too much for the human heart".

DIZWALTNEY
05-19-10, 03:10 AM
second time around

ranasakawa
05-19-10, 03:47 AM
I like 'No Such Animal'
I have a 7" vinyl single of this.

purple jim
05-19-10, 01:24 PM
There are at least two different track listings for albums titled "Free Spirit". One features a few Lonnie Youngblood/Hendrix tracks and another album, which is mostly made up of fakes has "She's A Fox" (by The Icemen with Hendrix on guitar).

dino77
05-19-10, 01:39 PM
There are at least two different track listings for albums titled "Free Spirit". One features a few Lonnie Youngblood/Hendrix tracks and another album, which is mostly made up of fakes has "She's A Fox" (by The Icemen with Hendrix on guitar).

Yeah, these two:

Accord:

Good Times (fake)
Voices (fake)
Suspicious (fake)
Whipper
Bessie Mae
Soul Food
Voice In The Wind (fake)
Free Spirit (fake)
Let Me Thrill Your Soul (fake)




Thunderbird records

Hey Leroy (fake)
Free Spirit (fake)
House Of The Rising Sun (fake)
Something You Got (fake)
Let The God Sing (fake)
She's A Fox

purple jim
05-19-10, 03:15 PM
Cool.

dino77
05-20-10, 09:53 AM
More info on these tracks that really have little to do with Jimi:

These tracks are presumably the intended Hitson album:

Free spirit
House of the rising sun
Let the god sing
Suspicious
Bring my baby back
Voice in the wind
Hey Leroy
Good feeling
Let me thrill your soul
Something you got
Hot trigger



Personell is:
Hermon Hitson guitars, vocals
Lee Moses keyboards, vocals on Hey Leroy
Alonzo "Yogie" Taylor bass

March "Eddie" Maxey, drums
"Trigger" drums on last track


Producer Johnny Brantley



Hitson gives the recording date as 1967-68 in one source.

Another source claims a 1965 recording date: "It was during this time that Hermon met Jimi Hendrix who was in town with the Isley Brothers and he was hanging out with the DJ Gorgeous George. Gorgeous George introduced Hermon to Hendrix and Hendrix sat in on a number of the tracks which Hermon was laying down for the proposed album. The album eventually got shelved and Brantley held onto to the masters which eventually ended up being released by Brantley at a later date as a Hendrix package".


The sound of the album is definitely early 70's though (these fakes first appeared in 1972), with no sign of any Jimi. Aside from the intro from Go Go Shoes, tagged on to Good Feeling.

stplsd
05-20-10, 09:33 PM
More info on these tracks that really have little to do with Jimi:

Personell is:
Hermon Hitson guitars, vocals
Lee Moses keyboards, vocals on Hey Leroy
Alonzo "Yogie" Taylor bass

March "Eddie" Maxey, drums
"Trigger" drums on last track

Hitson gives the recording date as 1967-68 in one source.

Another source claims a 1965 recording date: "It was during this time that Hermon met Jimi Hendrix who was in town with the Isley Brothers and he was hanging out with the DJ Gorgeous George. Gorgeous George introduced Hermon to Hendrix and Hendrix sat in on a number of the tracks which Hermon was laying down for the proposed album. The album eventually got shelved and Brantley held onto to the masters which eventually ended up being released by Brantley at a later date as a Hendrix package".


That would be Eddie B. Trigger & Eddie "Maxey" Jr.?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUCn9HRU3Fk

http://www.discogs.com/King-Hannibal-Truth/release/1224955

http://georgiasoul.blogspot.com/2006/10/herman-hitson-aint-no-other-way.html
Any chance of telling us your "sources"?

dino77
05-21-10, 02:48 AM
That would be Eddie B. Trigger & Eddie "Maxey" Jr.?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUCn9HRU3Fk

http://www.discogs.com/King-Hannibal-Truth/release/1224955

http://georgiasoul.blogspot.com/2006/10/herman-hitson-aint-no-other-way.html
Any chance of telling us your "sources"?


Eddie B Trigger and March "Eddie" Maxey Jr, yes. As you've "googled up", these Atlanta musicians played on Hannibal's one album and on other Hitson recordings.
The "sources" are Hermon (probably very unreliable except for the musicians credits)

Colin Dilnot's interview:
http://darkendofthestreet.blogspot.com/2006/11/hermon-hitson-interview.html


"It was during this time that Hermon met Jimi Hendrix who was in town (Atlanta) with the Isley Brothers and he was hanging out with the DJ Gorgeous George. Gorgeous George introduced Hermon to Hendrix and Hendrix sat in on a number of the tracks which Hermon was laying down for the proposed album. The album eventually got shelved and Brantley held onto to the masters which eventually ended up being released by Brantley at a later date as a Hendrix package with Hermon’s vocals chopped off!"

The "meeting" part sounds believable, but Jimi was playing with Little Richard at the time, not the Isleys.


Hermon's MySpace:http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=147200448&blogId=400157820

"hi guys,it's been a while.back in 1967@68,i recorded two seprate albums,
one was recorded r@b and the other between blues,rock and jazz..the rock album became known as "free spirit"and was released under the name of my good friend "jimi hendrix.

purple jim
05-21-10, 07:10 AM
Far out guys. Thanks for all this info!

stplsd
05-21-10, 08:34 AM
Hermon's MySpace:http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=147200448&blogId=400157820 (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=147200448&blogId=400157820)

"hi guys,it's been a while.back in 1967@68,i recorded two seprate albums,
one was recorded r@b and the other between blues,rock and jazz..the rock album became known as "free spirit"and was released under the name of my good friend "jimi hendrix.[/QUOTE]

All Hitson's quotes surrounding this 1972 album, appear almost identical to Youngblood's attempts to distance himself from the Jimi scams, by claiming a much earlier date for the recordings from their actual, and that they had nothing to do with Brantley's releases;-) The Hitson scam is quite different though, in that the recordings all appear to be post mortem and have nothing to do with Hendrix at all - apart from him being very loosely associated with these people in the past.

http://indangerousrhythm.blogspot.com/2007/08/george-scott-find-someone-to-love-maple.html

There's a pile of stuff on this web site related to these shady figures associated with Brantley & Jimi, Jimi lived for a time in Atlanta and it appears had many friends associates & musicians connected with/from Atlanta, Georgia, including Little Richard himself, and it is claimed that members of Major Lance's band played on My Diary & Utee:

"[Herman Hitson] also recorded 2 other tracks which lay in the can until last year called “Sweeter” and “Why Is It Taking So Long”. The last song was released by Johnny Brantley (http://indangerousrhythm.blogspot.com/2005/10/johnny-brantley-productions.html)on an artist called George Scott about 4 years later."

Interestingly George Scott also released a version of 'Sweet Thang' using the original backing track ("Wipe The Sweat" possibly written by Lonnie Youngblood?) with lyrics written by Billy Lamont, and featuring Jimi & Lonnie Youngblood.

You can order a copy of the original Hitson LP the way it was supposed to be (according to Hitson) here:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=147200448&blogId=400157820

Apart from Lonnie Youngblood, Brantley also released two singles by Ray Lewis on the Fairmount label. So for Youngblood to claim the sessions for his singles featurinbg Jimi, were independant of Brantley appear disingenuous.

dino77
05-21-10, 10:15 AM
Wouldn't call the musicians "shady". That's Mr Brantley himself.
Hermon Hitson, Lonnie Youngblood and Lee Moses were just musicians Brantley used to fabricate his "Jimi" recordings, and it's doubtful any of them benefitted much. Of course the simple truth would be nice to hear.

The interesting thing is Hermon claims that Jimi plays on one track from his album; I have been tempted to order it just to find out which.


Lonnie Youngblood arranged a number of Brantley recordings, so the men clearly worked together. And compiled the "Two Great Experiences" lp together. Brantley had been an assistant of sorts to Alan Freed and had connections all over the music scene in New York and licensed music to various labels. Much of his productions were apparently recorded without a record contact in hand.

Several of the Brantley productions are extremely good soul music, especially the Lee Moses album Time and Place, which is considered among the best southern soul ever recorded among aficionados.

stplsd
05-21-10, 10:29 AM
Wouldn't call the musicians "shady".
"Shady" ie concealed.


Hermon Hitson, Lonnie Youngblood and Lee Moses were just musicians

I wouldn't call Youngblood or Hitson "just musicians" They are the main performer & composers.


It's doubtful any of them benefitted much.

I have to disagree, Lonnie Youngblood has made many dodgy, and (apparently) deliberately misleading statements concerning his involvement over the years, Hitson similarly. Curtis Knight often made similar protestations of innocence, which is ludicrous. I never mentioned Moses as he doesn't appear to have any connection with this, being merely a backing musician.


Of course the simple truth would be nice to hear.
Exactly


The interesting thing is Hermon claims that Jimi plays on one track from his album

Yes, he would, wouldn't he;-) heh-heh

dino77
05-21-10, 10:37 AM
I have to disagree, Lonnie Youngblood has made many dodgy, and (apparently) deliberately misleading statements concerning his involvement over the years, Hitson similarly. Curtis Knight often made similar proteststations of innocence, which is ludicrous. I never mentioned Moses as he doesn't appear to have any connection with this, being merely a backing musician.



These misleading statements by Knight, Youngblood et al are probably to protect their own asses, their reputation as artists. But most probably they weren't the instigators of the scams, that honour goes to Mr Chalpin and Mr Brantley (now deceased, so he can't speak). Moses is listed as a co-producer along with Brantley of many of the cash-in albums, that's a pretty strong connection.

Speaking of which...the Moods album features most of the fakes that aren't Hitson recordings. They appear to be old backing tracks from various soul singles overdubbed with Lee Moses on guitar. Niko is trying to find all the original releases, and I've tried to help him. Quite interesting.

stplsd
05-21-10, 10:42 AM
These misleading statements by Knight, Youngblood et al are probably to protect their own asses, their reputation as artists. But most probably they weren't the instigators of the scams, that honour goes to Mr Chalpin and Mr Brantley (now deceased, so he can't speak). Moses is listed as a co-producer along with Brantley of many of the cash-in albums, that's a pretty strong connection.

What reputation? ha-ha-ha.
It appears Chalpin, Knight, Brantley & Youngblood were all very familiar with each other, who was the instigator is not really the point, it very much looks like they were all involved and likely benefitted. See my above post and your own statement "Of course the simple truth...etc" Never noticed Moses on any albums I've seen - but then I don't collect these. Was he mentioned on any of the original early 70's releases? Just noticed he's listed as co-composer with Hitson on several of the songs, with the two of them also claiming authorship separately for songs with the same titles.


I see Hitson is now going by the name of Hermon Aleem Abu Baaqar
The name Aleem is interesting as that is the surname the Allen twins took earlier.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Hermon-Baaqar/1380551860

I find it interesting how tight their scene was, although having nothing to do with these releases, Nate Edmunds worked for All Platinum records (1968?), the company that distributed the above Brantley produced George Scott Lp.

dino77
05-21-10, 05:48 PM
What reputation? ha-ha-ha.


Among other musicians, perhaps?





It appears Chalpin, Knight, Brantley & Youngblood were all very familiar with each other, who was the instigator is not really the point, it very much looks like they were all involved and likely benefitted. See my above post and your own statement "Of course the simple truth...etc" Never noticed Moses on any albums I've seen - but then I don't collect these. Was he mentioned on any of the original early 70's releases? Just noticed he's listed as co-composer with Hitson on several of the songs, with the two of them also claiming authorship separately for songs with the same titles.


I see Hitson is now going by the name of Hermon Aleem Abu Baaqar
The name Aleem is interesting as that is the surname the Allen twins took earlier.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Hermon-Baaqar/1380551860

I find it interesting how tight their scene was, although having nothing to do with these releases, Nate Edmunds worked for All Platinum records (1968?), the company that distributed the above Brantley produced George Scott Lp.

Many 70's lps have these details:

Produced by Johnny Brantley & Lee Moses
Engineer: Abe Steinberg
Recorded at Abtone recording studios, New York 10 June 1966

The studio and engineer is correct, and possibly the date is correct for some tracks. But Lee Moses had no part in the original sessions, so he likely got credit for post-production work; the overdubs.

All those musicians worked on Broadway, so it's no surprise they all knew each other. BTW, "Two Great Experiences" was released on a subsidiary of All Platinum, Maple Records.

If Youngblood and Hitson got royalties for all the albums they'd be financially secure, with sales of several million copies. These tracks were licensed hundreds of times by the producers. Yet they are still struggling musicians. Probably they got session fees at most.

stplsd
05-21-10, 08:31 PM
If Youngblood and Hitson got royalties for all the albums they'd be financially secure, with sales of several million copies. These tracks were licensed hundreds of times by the producers. Yet they are still struggling musicians. Probably they got session fees at most.

Several million? ha-ha-ha. I can't imagine anyone made much from all these crap releases. How do you know what their financial position was/is? Why did Brantley bother crediting them as composers if they were just session men? and why would they not get royalties? they are clearly listed as composer on several tunes and are also listed as composers under BMI? The whole point is they were not session men they are the main artists 'The stars' on some of these original recordings, but the record buying public wasn't interested. So after Jimi's death, Brantley and they (it does appear) tried to make some cash out of them by sticking 'Hendrix' all over the covers and throwing on any old out takes they could find and in the case of the Hitson recordings just blatant fraud.


All those musicians worked on Broadway, so it's no surprise they all knew each other. Did I say it was surprising? No. Which Broadway are we talking about? Because you happen to have sung in the same club as another artist does not mean that you know them, and especially have such closely associated exploitation, never mind just having played on the same street (or whatever "Broadway" is) at one time or another.



Engineer: Abe Steinberg
Recorded at Abtone recording studios,
The studio and engineer is correct,
Got an address for it: Abtone, 1733 Broadway, NYC. Not too far from Allegro studios at 1650



Lee Moses had no part in the original sessions
Hitson says Moses sings on one track and several of the songs are written/co-written by him, surely this is involvement in the original sessions?

Check out this photo of The Chosen Few, the guy is wearing a waistcoat that looks identical to one that was sold not so long ago as belonging to Jimi, never seen a photo of JH wearing it;-)

http://indangerousrhythm.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_archive.html

dino77
05-22-10, 05:11 AM
Several million? ha-ha-ha. I can't imagine anyone made much from all these crap releases.


Hundreds of releases bought by thousands of unsuspecting Hendrix fans for 40 years...that's hardly peanuts. The money went in someone's pockets. The mob? :p Actually, the record companies that released the 70's cash-in albums had alleged mob connections. Springboard International, Audiofidelity Enterprises etc from New Jersey.



How do you know what their financial position was/is?

Who knows, but draw you own conclusions from the interviews on the net. Youngblood is working full time wedding receptions, as your millionaires do.




The whole point is they were not session men they are the main artists 'The stars' on some of these original recordings, but the record buying public wasn't interested. So after Jimi's death, Brantley and they (it does appear) tried to make some cash out of them by sticking 'Hendrix' all over the covers and throwing on any old out takes they could find and in the case of the Hitson recordings just blatant fraud.




Youngblood, Hitson and Moses worked both as featured artists and session men for Brantley. See earlyhendrix. My impression is Brantley was the brainchild and major beneficiary behind this, similar to the role Ed Chalpin played in the Hendrix-Knight recordings. Just an opinion like yours, we don't know the facts.




Did I say it was surprising? No. Which Broadway are we talking about? Because you happen to have sung in the same club as another artist does not mean that you know them, and especially have such closely associated exploitation, never mind just having played on the same street (or whatever "Broadway" is) at one time or another.


Got an address for it: Abtone, 1733 Broadway, NYC.

The street in New York? See Sharon Soul interview:
http://www.earlyhendrix.com/knight-interviews/62-curtis-knight-a-the-squires-sharon-soul
"Most of those guys worked on Broadway between 72st to 80th st. and in the Bronx also. See, good musicians played in the best clubs on Broadway because that was where the money and contacts were. So, you'll notice that they all seem to know each other."

BTW, this Abe Steinberg later worked as Ed Chalpin's engineer at Dimensional Sound, aka Studio 76 (source Billboard).





Hitson says Moses sings on one track and several of the songs are written/co-written by him, surely this is involvement in the original sessions?


You're confusing different recordings. I was talking about the other group of "fakes" where Brantley overdubbed Moses (likely) on existing backing tracks that he didn't play on originally. The "Moods" album.





Check out this photo of The Chosen Few, the guy is wearing a waistcoat that looks identical to one that was sold not so long ago as belonging to Jimi, never seen a photo of JH wearing it;-)

http://indangerousrhythm.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_archive.html

Do you have a photo of the alleged Jimi coat?

johanincr
05-22-10, 06:46 AM
http://i.ebayimg.com/05/%21BduqgGQ%21mk%7E$%28KGrHqEH-DUErdH1hLtlBK6LR5VUow%7E%7E_12.JPGhttp://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4907/1498/1600/Picture%20011.0.jpg

U meant these similar but not identical pieces?

stplsd
05-22-10, 06:49 AM
Hundreds of releases bought by thousands of unsuspecting Hendrix fans for 40 years...that's hardly peanuts. The money went in someone's pockets. The mob? Actually, the record companies that released the 70's cash-in albums had alleged mob connections. Springboard International, Audiofidelity Enterprises etc from New Jersey.


Who knows, but draw you own conclusions from the interviews on the net. Youngblood is working full time wedding receptions, as your millionaires do.

I think you are hugely overestimating the amount of sales. Spread the sales out over 40 years of diminishing returns, you've got nothing more than a cottage industry recordings wise, really. It's you that seems to think someone became a millionaire out of this, not me.

we don't know the facts.
Exactly but it's still interesting to see what's out there



The street in New York? See Sharon Soul interview:
http://www.earlyhendrix.com/knight-interviews/62-curtis-knight-a-the-squires-sharon-soul
"Most of those guys worked on Broadway between 72st to 80th st. and in the Bronx also. See, good musicians played in the best clubs on Broadway because that was where the money and contacts were. So, you'll notice that they all seem to know each other."

She's apparently talking about the guys in the Squires including Jimi ("See, good musicians played in the best clubs on Broadway because that was where the money [was];-)", but not Hitson & Moses who were based in Atlanta, were they not?



BTW, this Abe Steinberg later worked as Ed Chalpin's engineer at Dimensional Sound, aka Studio 76 (source Billboard).

Thanks for the info, but "Billboard" that's a bit vague?


You're confusing different recordings.
No. I was talking about the original recordings.



I was talking about the other group of "fakes" where Brantley overdubbed Moses (likely) on existing backing tracks that he didn't play on originally. The "Moods" album.

Yes, but that doesn't change what I said.


Do you have a photo of the alleged Jimi coat?

I'll try and find it (it's not a coat, by the way, it's a waistcoat).

dino77
05-22-10, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=dino77;29985]Hundreds of releases bought by thousands of unsuspecting Hendrix fans for 40 years...that's hardly peanuts. The money went in someone's pockets. The mob? Actually, the record companies that released the 70's cash-in albums had alleged mob connections. Springboard International, Audiofidelity Enterprises etc from New Jersey.


Who knows, but draw you own conclusions from the interviews on the net. Youngblood is working full time wedding receptions, as your millionaires do. [/QUOTES]

I think you are hugely overestimating the amount of sales. Spread the sales out over 40 years of diminishing returns, you've got nothing more than a cottage industry recordings wise, really. It's you that seems to think someone became a millionaire out of this, not me.

Exactly but it's still interesting to see what's out there






Thanks for the info, but "Billboard" that's a bit vague?




Here's the Billboard reference. A directory of US studios in 1972, pretty interesting.

http://books.google.se/books?id=qkUEAAAAMBAJ&pg=RA1-PA39&lpg=RA1-PA39&dq=%22abe+steinberg%22+%2B%22dimensional%22&source=bl&ots=-p4VEJvFa8&sig=WyraSo6_B3qEkai9A0XTqMzE388&hl=sv&ei=_P73S6LqBaOIOIqu1ZUM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22abe%20steinberg%22%20%2B%22dimensional%22&f=false

karsten
05-22-10, 08:20 PM
Yeah, he sampled it. As did Amy Winehouse on the "Back to black" album. Can't remember, but I think one of the versions retains Jimi's guitar part.

Seems to me the break in Gypsy Eyes at 1:23 has a resemblance to the She's a Fox break at 1:24 too..
Gypsy Eyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvAiZI0WyyM

She's a fox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbdK2MkjR88

stplsd
05-23-10, 02:06 AM
[QUOTE=stplsd;29987]

Here's the Billboard reference. A directory of US studios in 1972, pretty interesting.

http://books.google.se/books?id=qkUEAAAAMBAJ&pg=RA1-PA39&lpg=RA1-PA39&dq=%22abe+steinberg%22+%2B%22dimensional%22&source=bl&ots=-p4VEJvFa8&sig=WyraSo6_B3qEkai9A0XTqMzE388&hl=sv&ei=_P73S6LqBaOIOIqu1ZUM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22abe%20steinberg%22%20%2B%22dimensional%22&f=false

Thanks for that, saved me looking it up. Interesting that Allegro studios is still there in 1972? as well, but Jerry Simon isn't. And that Abtone has apparently closed and Abe Steinberg has moved in with Chalpin by at least 1970, making the connecton with Brantley that much stronger.

I could only find one reference to Abtone studios and that was from 1968:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wwoEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&dq=abtone&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=1#v=onepage&q=abtone&f=falseid=wwoEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&dq=abtone&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=1#v=onepage&q=abtone&f=false

This refers to the R&B producer Paul Kirk, which interestingly lead on to a search which turned up Nate Edmonds working with him as a&R in March 1966:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5SgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA12&dq=paul+kirk&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=2#v=onepage&q=paul%20kirk&f=false

Regarding the Sharon Soul interview - it's interesting that according to BB - K A Cole enterprises wasn't set up until Oct 1966 by which time Jimi had left:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-SgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA62&dq=%22KA+Cole%22&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22KA%20Cole%22&f=false


I can't find a photo of the waistcoat in question right now, but I'm sure it's featured in the video of the Paris exhibition, or possibly the video from the Seattle exhibition. If it's not identical it's very close - dark red with heavy gold braid.

stplsd
05-23-10, 02:24 AM
U meant these similar but not identical pieces?

Thanks. No, it's not that one, see my previous post update

dino77
05-24-10, 11:04 AM
Interesting that Allegro studios is still there in 1972? as well, but Jerry Simon isn't. And that Abtone has apparently closed and Abe Steinberg has moved in with Chalpin by at least 1970, making the connecton with Brantley that much stronger.



I don't think Jerry Simon owned or worked at Allegro; he simply used the studio (BTW, it was in the same building as Studio 76).
One strange thing is the alleged recording date for the Brantley tracks, 10 June 1966. On the same date, Jimi signed a contract with Simon's RSVP records. It may be a coincidence, off course.

stplsd
05-24-10, 07:36 PM
I don't think Jerry Simon owned or worked at Allegro; he simply used the studio.

Thanks for this idea. I now see that Allegro studios was owned by Laurie Records and run by Bruce Staples

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wycEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA10&dq=%22bruce+staple%22&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=3#v=onepage&q=%22bruce%20staple%22&f=false

Simon's RSVP address was in the same building as Allegro studios, as was Sue Records (until November 1965) & Ed Chalpin's PPX/Studio 76/Dimensional Sound - 1650 Broadway & West 51st Street, not too far away from The Brill Building at 1619 Broadway & West 50th Street, which has the famous Colony Record Centre (where Jimi bought records) on the street level, the Cheetah on the corner of Broadway at West 53rd Street and Abtone Studios at 1733 Broadway, on the corner of West 55th Street. Manny's & Hotel America were also quite close. The Paramount Theater where he played with Little Richard in 1965, the Lenox Hotel where he stayed with Carol Shiroky in early 1966 and The African Room where he met Mike Quashie in early 1966 are all also on/next to Broadway (at Times Sq.) All these address' are on/or just off Broadway, between Times Square & Central Park. Johnny Brantley & Lee Moses 'Lee John Records' address was 1687 Broadway.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VgsEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=21#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VgsEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=21#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false)

1650 Broadway was built to be a musician's headquarters, so much so that the laws at the time required that the "front" door be placed on the side of the building [West 51st Street] due to laws restricting musicians from entering buildings from the front. Most so-called '<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Brill</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Building</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>' writers began their careers at 1650, and the building continued to house many record labels throughout the decades.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Toni Wine: "There were really two huge buildings [in New York] that were housing publishing companies, songwriters, record labels, and artists. The <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Brill</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Building</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> was one. But truthfully, most of your R&B, really rock & roll labels and publishing companies, including the studio, which was in the basement and was called Allegro Studios, was in 1650 Broadway. They were probably a block and a half away from each other. 1650 and the <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Brill</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Building</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>. Allegro was great. Allegro was a fun studio. It wasn't "our" studio. It just happened to be a studio that was for rent in 1650 Broadway. A lot of people recorded there, not only from the building, but from all over. I remember the first session I ever saw at Allegro was Dion And The Belmonts. That was very cool. You'd walk in and there was just music in every elevator, in the lobby, and everywhere you walked in. That whole area of the city… you'd walk on the street and there was just a lot of music."

The first three appear to be about the same Jerry Simon

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ux8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA20&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=1#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BwsEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA12&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=3#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9wcEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA3&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=8#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sB8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA6&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=6#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA10&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=4#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false

Photo of Jerry Simon:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U0UEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=jerry+simon&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=19#v=onepage&q=jerry%20simon&f=false

ilovejimi
05-24-10, 07:44 PM
'How Would You Feel' I think is worthy of consideration as it indirectly, but very obviously refers to Rosa Lee Brook's refusal to sit at the back of the bus which basically sparked the civil rights movement, who was doing the dirty work in the US's increased escalation of it's involvement in Vietnam, .
do you mean Rosa Parks?

stplsd
05-24-10, 08:04 PM
do you mean Rosa Parks?

Yes, ha-ha-ha, brain blip, thanks.

Interesting title?: 'Psycho' by Hendricks on Juggy Murray's Sue records in 1960 (not Jimi)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hh0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA34&dq=%22sue+records%22&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=16#v=onepage&q=%22sue%20records%22&f=false

Nov 1962, Ike & Tina sue Juggy Murray for $300,000 in unpaid royalties:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0yQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT77&dq=%22sue+records%22&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=79#v=onepage&q=%22sue%20records%22&f=true (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0yQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT77&dq=%22sue+records%22&lr=&as_pt=MAGAZINES&cd=79#v=onepage&q=%22sue%20records%22&f=true)

Sue Records' address in 1963 & 1964 is given as 1650 Broadway, (ie the same as Jerry Simon's RSVP, Allegro Studios & Ed Chalpin's Studio 76/Dimensional Sound - mmm interesting) It seems to have moved in November 1965 to 265 W. 54th St where Murray built his first recording studio

dino77
05-25-10, 05:37 AM
Sue Records' address in 1963 & 1964 is given as 1650 Broadway, (ie the same as Jerry Simon's RSVP, Allegro Studios & Ed Chalpin's Studio 76/Dimensional Sound - mmm interesting) It seems to have moved in November 1965 to 265 W. 54th St where Murray built his first recording studio

Interesting indeed; Jimi thus signed contracts with three different producers in the same building in the space of one year...

dino77
05-25-10, 03:49 PM
Hermon's Free Spirit album is streaming on his homepage.


The "Jimi" track is simply "Under the table".

stplsd
05-25-10, 06:44 PM
Hermon's Free Spirit album is streaming on his homepage.


The "Jimi" track is simply "Under the table".

Which as we know has no Hermon involvement heh-heh (unless he overdubbed some of his own guitar on much later)

Interesting? This song 'Birth of a Playboy' was recorded at Abtone, Brantley released it on different labels: 'Lee John' (owned by Lee Moses & Johnny Brantley), 'Maple', and 'Canyon' (Canyon were distributors for Maple at one point). The name of the group on Lee John was 'The Crown Four', and had a different publisher (Calpam) and producer (Wes Watts) listed! their name was changed to 'The Chosen Few' (name only, same artists) on the other two releases (Cudda Pane as publisher & Brantley as producer), they were also known as 'The Adventurers'. This is the only record I've seen with an Abtone 'studio disc'/'acetate'. Brantley apparently was always remixing/mastering etc. the horns are turned up loud on one version on another it's the piano, they are all basically the same track (same group) though. There are other Abtone "acetates" but I don't know if records were ever released of these .

purple jim
05-26-10, 03:15 AM
… no Hermon involvement…
:D

dino77
05-26-10, 03:50 AM
Well, there's a terrible fuzz guitar overdub on "Under The Table" that's certainly not Jimi...

Brantley's MO was he recorded backing tracks of songs and then overdubbed different singers...quite clever.

stplsd
05-26-10, 09:21 AM
Well, there's a terrible fuzz guitar overdub on "Under The Table" that's certainly not Jimi...

Yeah, I know, that's why I said "(unless he overdubbed some of his own guitar on much later)" it could of course be Lee Moses, or anyone else really.


Brantley's MO was he recorded backing tracks of songs and then overdubbed different singers...quite clever.

Brantley's MO was that he recorded songs with artists. And then, later, a couple of times wiped their vocal and replaced it with another artist, ie the same as many others have done eg King Curtis with a couple of songs. The only Jimi related one I can think of is /"Wipe The Sweat" (unreleased backing track used for "Sweet Thang" with Lonnie & Jimi singing on different versions)/"Sweet Thang" (original song)/"Sweet Thang" (cover version using original backing track)/ "Keep The Faith, Baby" new lyric and vocal by George Scott using original backing track). Not sure how many producers went to the length of just changing the mix a bit, but then changing the name of the group (still the same people only the name is changed), the producer & the music publisher though!

Fenders Fingers
05-26-10, 09:31 AM
Brantley's MO was that he recorded songs with artists. And then, later, a couple of times wiped their vocal and replaced it with another artist, or just changed the mix and the name of the group, ie the same as many others have done eg King Curtis with a couple of songs.

And this is why I kept out of this one .................. a fucking minefield !
So my fav' early Jimi tune is Driving South. I care little of it's origins as he get a good groove going on this. Plus he's doing what all artists do at some stage and coffee adverts too it seems !!

dino77
05-26-10, 09:39 AM
Yeah, I know, that's why I said "(unless he overdubbed some of his own guitar on much later)" it could of course be Lee Moses, or anyone else really.



Chill out, no criticism intended ;). I'd guess Hermon. I'm quite familiar with Lee Moses's guitar playing; he was actually a pretty fluent player (check out the Time and Place album).







Brantley's MO was that he recorded songs with artists. And then, later, a couple of times wiped their vocal and replaced it with another artist, or just changed the mix and the name of the group, ie the same as many others have done eg King Curtis with a couple of songs.

Yes, he recycled backing tracks many times; some songs are available with 4-5 or more different artists. It's hard to know who (or if there was one) was the original artist in many cases. Some of the Hendrix/Youngblood tracks appear to be the original demos later used for other artists; for example Wipe the Sweat which in 1968 turned up as Sweet Thang by Billy Lamont.

stplsd
05-26-10, 09:45 AM
Chill out,
I fail to see how you have arrived at the idea that I am unchilled;-)


Some of the Hendrix/Youngblood tracks appear to be the original demos later used for other artists; for example Wipe the Sweat which in 1968 turned up as Sweet Thang by Billy Lamont.

See my post above.


check out the Time and Place album.

I have and he's not what I would call particularly "fluent", I really can't be arsed comparing the styles, if someone has a particular passage they've found that demonstrates a strong similarity it would be interesting, though. [/QUOTE]


he recycled backing tracks many times; some songs are available with 4-5 or more different artists.

Do you have an example apart from Wipe The Sweat? (3 artists)

dino77
05-26-10, 11:12 AM
See my post above. Did "Wipe the Sweat" even have this title before 1972.



One piece of evidence is Jimi's vocals on take 3. We know those vocals (which includes the title) were recorded in 1966, so this version seems to predate the others, none of which were released until 1968:

Billy Lamont: Sweet thang (Youngblood/Brantley/LaMont)
Date - 1968 Produced by Brantley, Arr by Youngblood
Lenny Howard: Keep The Faith Baby (Lonnie Youngblood, O. Jones)
Date -Unknown, but likely after 1968 Produced by Youngblood/Brantley
George Scott: Sweet thang (Lamont-Brantley)
Date - after 1971 (label Maple 6008, "Two Great Experiences" was Maple 6004) Here Youngblood gets no credit, so perhaps he had quit working for Brantley.







I have and he's not what I would call particularly "fluent", I really can't be arsed comparing the styles, if someone has a particular passage they've found that demonstrates a strong similarity it would be interesting, though.

I think he's pretty good, but that's a matter of opinion off course.






Do you have an example apart from Wipe The Sweat? (3 artists)

"Love Slipped Through My Fingers"

- Nate Adams
- Hermon Hitson
- Gloria Barnes
- Sam Williams
- Ohio Players

"Why Is It Taking So Long"

- Sam Williams
- Hermon Hitson
- George Scott

stplsd
05-26-10, 08:09 PM
George Scott: Sweet thang (Lamont-Brantley)
Date - after 1971 (label Maple 6008, "Two Great Experiences" was Maple 6004) Here Youngblood gets no credit, so perhaps he had quit working for Brantley.

"Love Slipped Through My Fingers"

- Nate Adams
- Hermon Hitson
- Gloria Barnes
- Sam Williams
- Ohio Players

"Why Is It Taking So Long"

- Sam Williams
- Hermon Hitson
- George Scott

Thanks, interesting. Out of the genuine Jimi featured songs ony "Wipe the Sweat" appears to have been in this category, the rest were all credited entirely to the featured artists. "Under The Table" wasn't actually used for any commercial releases in Hendrix' lifetime, was it ever even considered. Here's one for the rogues gallery (JB):

Fenders Fingers
05-27-10, 05:11 AM
Ta for that shot. Not keeping up with the thread so is this Brantley?

dino77
05-27-10, 05:55 AM
Ta for that shot. Not keeping up with the thread so is this Brantley?


Yes, that's him...


"Under The Table" wasn't actually used for any commercial releases in Hendrix' lifetime, was it ever even considered.

That's right...it's a bit of a mystery track. Perhaps it was useless for commercial use, with a one minute guitar solo as intro.

stplsd
05-27-10, 09:15 AM
Possible explanation of why Brantley sometimes recorded songs with mutiple singers:
Songwriter (Dion etc.) Ernie Maresca:
"I'd go like two or three times a month with demos that I had made. You had to bring a demo in those days. Studios were like $15 an hour. I guess it was a lot of money but you could cut two or three things in an hour. I'd bring an acetate up there and they would play it. I used to do a lot of them at Associated Studios and a lot at Allegro Studios. That was in the basement of 1650 Broadway."
http://www.spectropop.com/ErnieMaresca/index.htm

Many of the Brantley songs weren't commercially released as singles at the time, (often they only exist as "acetates"/"studio demos"/"promo singles" or on much later Lps by the artists, and occasionally on retrospective collector discs etc.) Brantley (& other independant producers), I presume, would record a demo with an artist, hawk it around and if no-one bit, try it with another singer. Small indie labels, possibly in conjunction with Brantley might press up a few promos/demos and try a similar thing with the majors.

dino77
05-27-10, 09:52 AM
Possible explanation of why Brantley sometimes recorded songs with mutiple singers:
Songwriter (Dion etc.) Ernie Maresca:
"I'd go like two or three times a month with demos that I had made. You had to bring a demo in those days. Studios were like $15 an hour. I guess it was a lot of money but you could cut two or three things in an hour. I'd bring an acetate up there and they would play it. I used to do a lot of them at Associated Studios and a lot at Allegro Studios. That was in the basement of 1650 Broadway."
http://www.spectropop.com/ErnieMaresca/index.htm

Many of the Brantley songs weren't commercially released as singles at the time, (often they only exist as "acetates"/"studio demos"/"promo singles" or on much later Lps by the artists, and occasionally on retrospective collector discs etc.) Brantley (& other independant producers), I presume, would record a demo with an artist, hawk it around and if no-one bit, try it with another singer. Small indie labels, possibly in conjunction with Brantley might press up a few promos/demos and try a similar thing with the majors.

Yes, that's probably spot on. That's why the Brantley productions appear on so many different, sometimes tiny, labels:
Maple, Bran-T, Verve, Atlantic, A&M , Jomar, Smash, Tower, Fairmount,
Samar, Dynamo, Musicor, Front Page, Gates, Mercury, Josie, Trip, Capitol,
Uptown, 20th Century, Mini, Atco

His previous work with Alan Freed etc. must have given him an extensive network.

Lonnie:
"Johnny Brantley was a producer out of New York, and he had a lot of access to a lot of different companies. Like if you cut something and wanted to get it in the door somewhere, maybe Johnny could take it in for you."

stplsd
05-27-10, 10:44 AM
Lonnie:
"Johnny Brantley was a producer out of New York, and he had a lot of access to a lot of different companies. Like if you cut something and wanted to get it in the door somewhere, maybe Johnny could take it in for you."


Thanks for the quote, could you tell us where it came from, please?

dino77
05-27-10, 11:33 AM
Thanks for the quote, could you tell us where it came from, please?

It's from an old Univibes interview with Lonnie:

http://home.comcast.net/~loudfast/writeweb/lonnie.htm (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eloudfast/writeweb/lonnie.htm)

Note that he denies any involvement with the "Two Great Experiences" LP...evidence suggests he did overdubs on that one.

stplsd
05-27-10, 06:26 PM
^
Thanks.
Not to mention the 'Two Great Experiences' re-release CD sleeve notes, where he falsely claims he wrote all the songs;-). He appears to suffer delusions of grandeur, comically claiming he has recieved the titles: "The Ivy League King" and "The Prince Of Harlem" at different times, and then there's his later single "Sweet Sweet Tootie" ha-ha-ha - "Oh Lonnie, Oh Lonnie I love you... we are so lucky the way you blow your horn Lonnie" ha-ha-ha (must have been all that coke;-).
More importantly he has never been honest about what his musical relationship was with Jimi, constantly giving wildly confused dates and stressing his own importance without being forthcoming on the details. Giving the impression that he thinks he is "playing" the interviewer, but just succeeding in making himself look like a cheap hustler.

It's really outrageous that the original authors of the songs released by Chalpin-Knight-Brantley-Youngblood are so callously (if not illegally?) disregarded.

This BMI thing is weird, how do they pay out royalties to two people separately claiming authorship on the same song? Can anyone claim they wrote a song? and what does "(legal title)" after a song title mean?

While it may seem curiously dodgy that Jimi claimed authorship of "Driving South" [actually 'Thaw Out' by Albert Collins] it wasn't something that he apparently intended releasing on record, he had at least substantially added to it, and publicly praised Albert Collins in at least one interview. The original "Squires" version without the later "stereo" overdubs is probably my favourite "pre" track, but then there are several others that I'm partial to, unfortunately the mixing and sound quality is awful on most of the original "Squires" "live" tracks generally available, surely someone has better copies out there?

stplsd
06-01-10, 10:10 PM
Favourite "pre" track by Amy Winehouse [thanks dino] is '(My Girl ) She's A Fox'. Her song 'He Can Only Hold Her', used the original backing track for the demo, which was later replaced by a copy by session musicians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlTQJ4XMT30&feature=related

And then there is John Legend's, (also most excellent [better?]) "Slow Dance" which mostly just uses the original backing track (including backing vocals) on his release (is Brantley still on the go?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03oRy18jsxg

Brantley is one of the most significant figures in the history of rock & roll, but given the way it turned out it's no surprise that he kept himself in the shadows:
The Harris subcommittee investigators started questioning him [Freed] ("Moon Dog") very soon after he was fired and they also interrogated Johnny Brantley, talent coordinator of Freed's show, and Jack Hook[e], a former associate and onetime booking agent for his dance shows. . . . They inquired about Freed's knowledge of disc jockey involvements in other enterprises, such as record companies, record-pressing companies, record dis­tributorships, talent agencies, "ownership" of singers, record shops and all the varied phases of payola which are now being revealed to the public. ... He was also inter­rogated about his rival network star Dick Clark but "I merely answered some of their questions about him."<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
In Alan Freed, Hy and Sam Weiss [‘Old Town’ records ;-)] had found a willing promotional ally. The fledg­ling record men expressed their gratitude by giving Freed a writer's share on "Darling, Listen to the Words of This Song" along with Johnny Brantley [Freed's right-hand man] and bona fide writer Julius Dixson. Alan Freed's onetime manager Tommy Vastola admitted to helping get Hy's records aired: "If Alan played your record, it would bust wide open." Vastola first met Hy in an office lobby as he fought with "partner" Teddy Reig in a furious argument over "$5,000 payola." Presumably this was the very same advance that helped to finance Alan Freed's house purchase."<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Among the sworn recipients "with regard to the amount paid by Coed Records, Inc., to disk jockeys, etc. for promotion of records" were Johnny Brantley (probably as a conduit to Alan Freed at $440), Ernie Durham ($175), Don McLeod ($225), Tommy Smalls ($200), Joe Smith ($800), George Woods ($150),and Lynn Tripp a huge ($5,050). The total Coed bag exceeded $19,000.
<o:p></o:p>
Brantley<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Johnny Brantley – employed as Freed’s ("Moon Dog") assistant from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:date Month="9" Day="7" Year="1954">Sept. 7, 1954</st1:date> until Nov. 1959 when Freed went off the air. (P. 35).
Brantley’s salary was paid one half by Freed and one half by WINS (P.35). In August 1954 Brantley had been employed as a radio producer by WINS (P. 1360 II). Freed joined the station in Sept 1954. (P. 1362 II). Brantley was assigned to work with Freed as a producer (P. 1363 II). In April 1955 Brantley started working for Freed exclusively (P. 1365 II).
Freed would select the records to be played on the program (P. 1369 II). Brantley was asked by Freed for advice on certain records to be played on the program (P. 1370 II).
Brantley did not accept any payments or gifts from record manufacturers or distributors with the understanding that he would push their records on Freed’s program (P. 1372 and 1373 II)
In 1957 Brantley went to work for Freed in a publishing company which Freed had aquired (Figure Music) and left the program (P. 1377 - 1378II). Brantley’s place as Freed’s assistant was taken by Inga Boling.
(P. 1378 II). Brantley had nothing to do with the operation of Freed’s program on WABC. (P. 1378 II) except on those occasions when Freed was making personal appearances and Brantley filled in for him on WABC (P. 1378 - 1379II). At Figure Music Co. Brantley was an assistant to Jack Hooke. (P. 1380 II) Brantley collected a $10,000 check for Freed from Jerry Blaine. Freed told Brantley that the check was for his new house. (P. 1381 II) In 1958 Brantley left Figure Music Co. to assist Freed with his new television show on WNEW. (P. 1384 II). Brantley’s employer was Stanford Productions, Inc., a paper firm set up to cover the checks for the artists that were appearing on the TV show. (P. 1384 II). It’s purpose was to make it appear that the artists on the show had been paid for their appearances when, in fact, they were not. (P. 1386 II). The record companies sent a check to Stanford to cover the artists salary. Stanford made deductions (social security, withholding tax) and sent a check back to the record companies (P. 1388 II).
Brantley never got any kickbacks from the artists for selecting them. (P. 1392 II).
Brantley selected all the records for the WNEW TV show with Freed’s approval (P. 1393 II).
Brantley did not receive any payments or gifts from record manufacturers or distributors in order to push their records on this show. (P. 1393 II).
Brantley did not know of any agreement to push the records of certain companies on this program. (P. 1394 II)
In October 1959 Freed told Brantley that he’d been receiving payment from record manufacturers and distributors in order to push certain of their records. (P. 1396 II). Freed told Brantley that he was finding this system unsatisfactory (P. 1396 II). Prior to this conversation Brantley did not know that Freed had been accepting payment from record manufacturers and distributors with an understanding that he would favor the playing of their records (P. 1397 II). Freed decided to work throughthe distributors only and not the record companies. (P. 1397 II). Freed’s admission of receiving payments related only to his radio program at WABC. ((P. 1397 II)
It was Brantley’s suggestion that Freed should deal exclusively through distributors, and only a handful of distributors (P. 1398 II) Freed was complaining because he had to play bad records and his ratings were dropping (P. 1399 II). Freed said he was playing bad records because he was obligated to too many people who were paying him. (P. 1399 II). Brantley and Freed worked out an arrangement whereby only 4 companies would now pay Freed (P. 1399 II). The 4 names arrived at were Lou Klayman, Jerry Blaine, Johnny Halonka and Sam Weiss. (P. 1400 II).
The arrangement worked out was that Freed would select a pick of the week and the distributors whose record it was would pay Freed $1,000 and Freed would select a sleeper of the week and that the distributor would pay $500 and Freed would continue to play the other records which he thought were good for nothing. (P. 1401 II). Brantley arranged to see the 4 distributors singly at Freed’s appartment. (P. 1403 II).
Freed was always present and in some cases his wife was. (P. 1403 II). The arrangement went into effect the following week. (P. 1403 II). The distributors went along with it whether they liked it or not. Freed wanted an income from the distributors of $1500 a week. (P. 1404 II). The 4 distributors all brought their records up to Freed’s appartment. (P. 1409 II). The first record played as pick of the week was Humor Rock. (P. 1410 II). This was Klayman’s record. (P. 1411 II). Freed asked Brantley to go over to Klayman’s and pick up an envelope which Brantley did. (P. 1411 II). Brantley knew that it was supposed to contain $1,000. (P. 1413 II)
Freed specified that the payment be in cash. (P. 1417 II). That night Freed gave Brantley $200. (P. 1432 II).
<o:p></o:p>
Billboard <st1:date Month="5" Day="19" Year="1958">19 May 1958</st1:date>: ."... Johnny Brantley will be married to Carole Diana Preston on May 24 in <st1:State><st1:place>New York</st1:place></st1:State>. Brantley has worked with Alan Freed for the past three years.

He (like Freed) had a couple (2 only) of probably bogus? "composer" credits, but also had a single released under his name "Pot Luck" by 'Johnny Brantley's All Stars' (composed with the famous Johnny Kirkland) which is considered in some quarters as a dance classic: <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

guest
06-02-10, 01:36 AM
Move Over Let Me Dance with the Isleys in 1964 is my favorite track because of the sheer mastery evident in Jimi's playing even that early, how he didn't make it in America is beyond me. Testify is also cool, a lot of attitude in his playing as usual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qNK-27-HEM&feature=related

dino77
06-02-10, 10:25 AM
^
Thanks.
Not to mention the 'Two Great Experiences' re-release CD sleeve notes, where he falsely claims he wrote all the songs;-). He appears to suffer delusions of grandeur, comically claiming he has recieved the titles: "The Ivy League King" and "The Prince Of Harlem" at different times, and then there's his later single "Sweet Sweet Tootie" ha-ha-ha - "Oh Lonnie, Oh Lonnie I love you... we are so lucky the way you blow your horn Lonnie" ha-ha-ha (must have been all that coke;-).
More importantly he has never been honest about what his musical relationship was with Jimi, constantly giving wildly confused dates and stressing his own importance without being forthcoming on the details. Giving the impression that he thinks he is "playing" the interviewer, but just succeeding in making himself look like a cheap hustler.

It's really outrageous that the original authors of the songs released by Chalpin-Knight-Brantley-Youngblood are so callously (if not illegally?) disregarded.

This BMI thing is weird, how do they pay out royalties to two people separately claiming authorship on the same song? Can anyone claim they wrote a song? and what does "(legal title)" after a song title mean?

While it may seem curiously dodgy that Jimi claimed authorship of "Driving South" [actually 'Thaw Out' by Albert Collins] it wasn't something that he apparently intended releasing on record, he had at least substantially added to it, and publicly praised Albert Collins in at least one interview. The original "Squires" version without the later "stereo" overdubs is probably my favourite "pre" track, but then there are several others that I'm partial to, unfortunately the mixing and sound quality is awful on most of the original "Squires" "live" tracks generally available, surely someone has better copies out there?


Thanks for the Brantley info.
According to Hermon Histon, he is dead. It's anyone's guess who profits from the "Youngblood" recordings now.
Note that Brantley's songs are also published under the name John Wesley, possible that was his real surname.

I love "Sweet Sweet Tootie", it's hilarious :p. Maybe there was some "tooting" in the studio...

As far as I know, Jimi never had "Driving South" published, though Curtis Knight did. Even the EH releases credit Knight as the writer.

Yes, the BMI composer credits are strange.
"Legal title" seems to be the BMI term for the "original title" of a work; to differentiate it from the alternative titles.

stplsd
06-02-10, 03:54 PM
John Wesley, possible that was his real surname.



he also claims BMI under 'Wes Wesley'

souldoggie
06-04-10, 06:42 PM
I know I've shown this 45 before, but here it is again. I just get the biggest kick out of it. Looks as if our good friend Ed Chalpin was doing his best to establish PPX publishing ownership. The fact that this single was released on Capitol shouldn't surprise us, I suppose. DJ stamped May 4, 1968, by the way.

The Pack were an early inception of the forth coming Capitol Records hit recording artist, Grand Funk Railroad.
But who in the heck is John Rhys? Gotta be an alias.

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww136/souldoggie/DSC01165.jpg

stplsd
06-05-10, 01:12 AM
^
Thanks, just reinforces what a nasty piece of work he is