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View Full Version : Better Career-Defining Performance: Monterey Or Fillmore East?



bogey_j
12-27-09, 12:41 AM
its interesting because monterey and fillmore were two different hendrixes. The hendrix at monterey was young, full of life, hungry, and wanted to completely blow people's minds. After years of struggling monterey was his chance to make it and he was gonna pull out all the stops. Jimi burning his guitar was one of the most memorable moments in rock history.

On the other hand, hendrix at fillmore was pissed off, and weary from the rock and roll lifestyle. During machine gun he didnt do any tricks, he just stood still played. Fillmore was very significant because it showed his evolution from monterey, the hendrix his audience always wanted. I always felt that his machine gun performance was a 'fuck you' to the people that wanted him to stay the same, and it was also his statement against the Vietnam war

which performance do you think is better?

The Earth Blues
12-27-09, 11:50 AM
During machine gun he didnt do any tricks, he just stood still played.
Well there was plenty of other shows, during a song he would just "stand there and play." He still had moves during the show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umnyez55mss

I would say Monterey. This set him up for big things in the USA and he blew everyone away...of course he also did during the Fillmore Show, and every show.

But Monterey was a landmark show for him. If he played that show and SUCKED, he likely wouldn't have gotten as popular as quickly as he did in the USA.

Jimi_Uchihaeyez
12-27-09, 01:44 PM
To me, Fillmore. Fillmore was more James Marshall Hendrix "This is what I want to do, Like it or not." Monterey was more Jimi Hendrix, "I'm going to blow your mind with these crazy moves." Of course Monterey set up his fame, But by 1970, even 1969, You could see that type of thing was not what he wanted to do. The Fillmore shows were what Jimi wanted to do more then what everyone wanted to see. So as more of a career defining thing, it's the Fillmore East shows for me.

MourningStar
12-27-09, 02:11 PM
I do not think Hendrix's career can be 'defined' by a single performance. Hendrix was like watching the theory of evolution materialize before your very eyes. 1966 Hendrix was different than 1967 Hendrix, 1968 Hendrix was different than ...blah bla woof woof ... . His evolution was total, meaning visual as well as aural.

I vote for Woodstock. A little of the past, the present and a little of the future (career-defining? ;) ).




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/XiKano/AVATAR/peace5.gif

dino77
12-27-09, 02:57 PM
Both are career-defining, but for different reasons.
Muscially - Fillmore (ie Machine Gun). Visually, Monterey is more entertaining, but it's not in the same league playing-wise (aside from the jawdropping Killing Floor).

thefrenchowl
12-27-09, 03:31 PM
Hi all,

Personnally, I believe Jimi would be most disturbed that we would want to define him by his concerts... I tend to side up with STPLSD that his schedule wasn't that hard, but Jimi's comments and perceptions seem to indicate he was tired of being in front of a crowd... Indeed, he never voluntarly put out a live album... BOG was painfully extracted out of him, plus little glimpses of Monterey and Woodstock, where his approval was probably not needed or even required...

Sure, at Monterey, you can see from his banter between songs that he was enjoying it but that soon wore out...

I can believe no probs that he had Machine Gun within him well before the start of the Experience BUT he probably wasn't too sure or confident to come out with it, maybe he didn't even know fully it was there for the taking. So he needed some sort of introductionnary phase to bring people into his world.

Sadly, lot of his followers just wanted the early Exp phase and got stuck there or left.

What followed were songs that allowed him to explore ad vomitum whatever he was feeling at the time, regardless of what the public in front of him wanted...

This is great if you're well tuned into him but I wonder how many at the time just saw that as useless exploration, centric indulgence or else... If it's great for you, what makes you believe it was also great for Jimi to actually do it (compare here his genius and our mediocrity ...)?

Frankly, how many freaks can sit with you through a long Red House or Machine Gun??? None of me friends can, and there's some Jimi lovers in them... Most of my Jimi's listening is a very lonely experience...

What Jimi wanted is just sit in a studio and explore. His only hard worked on legacy to us is his own studio outings, 3 lps that's it.

The rest of the studio stuff has been bastardized for years by various producers/engineers/family and the live stuff was probably too "easy" for him...

To end on an even sadder note, if you ever saw Monty Python's "The life of Brian", just revisit it and just imagine Jimi IS Brian...

Patrick

purple jim
12-27-09, 05:56 PM
Monterey definately. That Wild Man persona is what is retained by the masses, the media (unfortunately, one might say). It summed him up perfectly at that stage.
As for the Fillmore shows, OK, "Machine Gun" is awesome and the funky groove of "Who Knows" and "Power Of Soul" is irresistable but hell, a listen to the entire four shows reveals that the Band Of Gypsys just hadn't got their act together. There are some simply awful performances in there and in retrospect, Buddy Miles' style didn't fit in at all well with Jimi's (apart from a few great songs here and there). Some things on "Live At The Fillmore East" make me cringe with embarassment for Jimi.
Give me Fillmore East 68, Winterland, San Diego 69, Albert Hall 69 or Berkeley any day rather than those shambolic BOG efforts.

MourningStar
12-27-09, 06:11 PM
... Buddy Miles' style didn't fit in at all well with Jimi's (apart from a few great songs here and there). ... ... and those 'few great songs' were most likely the ones that show-cased the direction Jimi was moving towards, yes?

Experiencereunited
12-27-09, 06:45 PM
Monterey no question. Fillmore East (I assume you mean BOG) was redefining (in a good way!)

The Earth Blues
12-27-09, 06:52 PM
Monterey definately. That Wild Man persona is what is retained by the masses, the media (unfortunately, one might say). It summed him up perfectly at that stage.
As for the Fillmore shows, OK, "Machine Gun" is awesome and the funky groove of "Who Knows" and "Power Of Soul" is irresistable but hell, a listen to the entire four shows reveals that the Band Of Gypsys just hadn't got their act together. There are some simply awful performances in there and in retrospect, Buddy Miles' style didn't fit in at all well with Jimi's (apart from a few great songs here and there). Some things on "Live At The Fillmore East" make me cringe with embarassment for Jimi.
Give me Fillmore East 68, Winterland, San Diego 69, Albert Hall 69 or Berkeley any day rather than those shambolic BOG efforts.
What songs on Live at the Fillmore East are you referring to? Stepping Stone? Earth Blues? Burning Desire? Wild Thing? Izabella?

MourningStar
12-27-09, 07:06 PM
What songs on Live at the Fillmore East are you referring to? Stepping Stone? Earth Blues? Burning Desire? Wild Thing? Izabella?It may well be subjective to say the least. One man's cringe is another's delight, yes?



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/XiKano/AVATAR/peace5.gif

Sharpstat
12-27-09, 07:45 PM
Monterey definately. That Wild Man persona is what is retained by the masses, the media (unfortunately, one might say). It summed him up perfectly at that stage.
As for the Fillmore shows, OK, "Machine Gun" is awesome and the funky groove of "Who Knows" and "Power Of Soul" is irresistable but hell, a listen to the entire four shows reveals that the Band Of Gypsys just hadn't got their act together. There are some simply awful performances in there and in retrospect, Buddy Miles' style didn't fit in at all well with Jimi's (apart from a few great songs here and there). Some things on "Live At The Fillmore East" make me cringe with embarassment for Jimi.
Give me Fillmore East 68, Winterland, San Diego 69, Albert Hall 69 or Berkeley any day rather than those shambolic BOG efforts.



I will have to disagree overall with your statement about BOG. I feel that given more time to record in the studio and less pressure from M Jeffries (I can't make money with 3 "coloured" guys playing to an all white audience) and tame Buddy's ego they could have made some great funky rock and roll. For those of you on here that happen to be over 50 (very few I would guess) you have to remember there weren't "black rock and roll bands" back in the day.

There was no internet or 500 TV channels to choose from your set top box. BOG was played heavily in the black neighbourhood I grew up in! That album introduced Jimi to friends of mine whom I know had not heard Jimi until that album! I still rate Captain Coconut/MLK/Ezy rider as one of Jimi's most creative jams he ever recorded. Here's something to think about. You ever wonder why after Jimi died later on the brothers in the 'hood" began wearing "brims" (hats) and "flashy clothes" considered "pimp"? What particular guitarist wore similar clothes back in 1968? especially when he wore the "hat" all of the time? Sorry went off on a tangent a bit,I'm back.

:000-thanx:

MourningStar
12-27-09, 08:01 PM
... For those of you on here that happen to be over 50 (very few I would guess) you have to remember there weren't "black rock and roll bands" back in the day. ...Simply not true! If you're gonna label Jimi's music 'rock and roll', then you seem to not remember Sly & The Family Stone or The Chambers Brothers.


:minipersonen065:

stplsd
12-27-09, 08:29 PM
During machine gun he didn't do any tricks,

He didn't do any "tricks" no, that would have been odd on a slow song like this. What "tricks" did he still perform by the start of 1969, anyway? a couple of times a show he would play the guitar with his teeth briefly, and swing his guitar a bit, maybe a bit of splits on Foxy (apart from the filmed encore on 24-2-69 Albert Hall where he smashed an old, badly out-of-tune guitar for the cameras)


he just stood still and played.

Not on my video;-) although appearing to be awkwardly, and self-conciously restrained through most of it he still puts in a bit of physical. What's so great about standing still anyway?

[QUOTE=bogey_j;25861]
Fillmore was very significant because it showed his evolution from monterey, the hendrix his audience always wanted. I always felt that his machine gun performance was a 'fuck you' to the people that wanted him to stay the same, and it was also his statement against the Vietnam war

His music had already started moving into that territory before the Experience broke up. The Fillmore showed quite starkly why Buddy could not become Jimi's full time drummer and share lead vocals with Jimi in future. I don't see that Machine gun was a FU to anything (except to Chalpin), it appears to have been very popular with some audiences, or that it was specifically "his statement against the Vietnam war" either - he said it was as much about people fighting "Wars within' themselves" and the lyrics sometimes can be seen to be as much about a "war" with a woman, never mind "people ...etc". (Who were these people who didn't want him to change - after AYE in early 1967 what new songs did he play live until his spring 1970 tour? Spanish Castle Magic & Voodoo Chile... eh, that's it, really. (okay Little Wing & Hear My Train occasionally) What new songs did he add to his set in his 70 US tour? Message to Love and Machine Gun (noticeably absent from several very good/excellent shows). Machine Gun was not a pointer to anything anyway, it stands alone, a one off.


which performance do you think is better?

Is chalk better than cheese?
Jimi: "You say “Am I better than Clapton right? Are you better than my girlfriend?”

stplsd
12-27-09, 08:35 PM
I feel that given more time to record in the studio and less pressure from M Jeffries


Dream on. They had over two months to record in the studio without the pressure of having to perform regularly, they only finished three releasable tracks (5 if you must count Izabella & Steppin' Stone).
What was this "pressure" from Jeffery?
Jimi got Mike to sack Buddy.
Jimi (& Mitch before he left for England) talked about a 'Jimi Hendrix Experience' tour in the spring of 1970 as a definite thing in interviews before, during and after the BOG's Fillmore concerts, and this was before the "reunion" Rolling Stone interview.



BOG was played heavily in the black neighbourhood I grew up in! That album introduced Jimi to friends of mine whom I know had not heard Jimi until that album!

Strange then isn't it that Hendrix' albums all featured heavily in the Billboard R&B charts from AYE onward...hmmm? and that he had prominent photo features in "black" mags such as Ebony from May 1968 too.

Sharpstat
12-28-09, 12:32 AM
Simply not true! If you're gonna label Jimi's music 'rock and roll', then you seem to not remember Sly & The Family Stone or The Chambers Brothers.


:minipersonen065:

Yes I remember both of the aforementioned artists.Grew up listening to them. They got their songs played on black radio stations Jimi did not! I only "labeled it "rock and roll" because "sky church music" didn't have a category until defined by Jimi! :D

Sharpstat
12-28-09, 12:55 AM
Dream on. They had over two months to record in the studio without the pressure of having to perform regularly, they only finished three releasable tracks (5 if you must count Izabella & Steppin' Stone).
What was this "pressure" from Jeffery?
Jimi got Mike to sack Buddy.
Jimi (& Mitch before he left for England) talked about a 'Jimi Hendrix Experience' tour in the spring of 1970 as a definite thing in interviews before, during and after the BOG's Fillmore concerts, and this was before the "reunion" Rolling Stone interview.




Strange then isn't it that Hendrix' albums all featured heavily in the Billboard R&B charts from AYE onward...hmmm? and that he had prominent photo features in "black" mags such as Ebony from 1967 too.


Jimi was in Ebony? Wow, never found that issue do you have a date of release? I could use that in my collection for sure. There were only two prominenet "black" magazines at that time both owned by William Johnson. Jet, (nice bikini centerfold for each issue and Ebony if my memory still serves me? Yes Jimi had Jeffery "fire Buddy" you could see in the interviews he (Buddy) was still pissed about it when interviewed before he died recently. That was the "ego" portion of my earlier post I mentioned earlier. Isn't BOG the only certified "Gold" album? I cannot remember off hand but I do remember the "sticker on the original album cover. The pressure I mentioned was for Jimi to release new material to pay off the 250,000 he owed Warner Bros for fronting the money for Electric Lady studios. But you know that already as most of us here are already experienced? For those of you that have the opportunity when in New York visit it. You cannot miss it because it stands out against the rest of the buildings in the neighborhood It was eerie being in there and imagining what transpired in that brief period he was able to be in his own studio.Still have the video I shot there in the late 90's. This isn't going to turn into a micturating contest is it?:)

purple jim
12-28-09, 03:06 AM
... and those 'few great songs' were most likely the ones that show-cased the direction Jimi was moving towards, yes?

Well, it's really what was on Jimi's "Band Of Gypsys". He had cherry picked the best tracks (apart from "We Gotta Live Together" which was, with "Them Changes" a deal to give royalties to Miles).
It's a shame that Jimi didn't come back to "Who Knows" during 1970 don't you think ?


What songs on Live at the Fillmore East are you referring to? Stepping Stone? Earth Blues? Burning Desire? Wild Thing? Izabella?

I'll have to go back through "A Box Of Gypsys" to handle that question but I do remember that I felt that many songs missed the mark. Jimi admitted it himself, apologising almost to the crowd that they were just jamming etc.


I will have to disagree overall with your statement about BOG. I feel that given more time to record in the studio and less pressure from M Jeffries (I can't make money with 3 "coloured" guys playing to an all white audience) and tame Buddy's ego they could have made some great funky rock and roll.

Well, the band had been playing together in the studio for a couple of months before the Fillmore dates so one would have expected them to have got things a little tighter (look how quickly The Experience got steaming). As I said, a few songs are fabulous but overall I feel that the band weren't gelling on too many occaisions.
Miles' style was just too sparse and metronome-like. Mitch was perfect on the other hand, creating such a whirlwind around Jimi, pushing him on and on. Buddy tended to stay on the one most of the time, slapping his snare right in time to Jimi's every beat, pinning him down. How Jimi responded could be brilliant, which is part of the fascination for BOG but overall I felt that he was straight-jacketed by Miles' drum style.



I still rate Captain Coconut/MLK/Ezy rider as one of Jimi's most creative jams he ever recorded.
Yes, some of the looser studio jams are more satisfying than the show numbers I agree. I love that jam and the "Villonova Junction Blues" one.

stplsd
12-28-09, 10:37 AM
The pressure I mentioned was for Jimi to release new material to pay off the 250,000 he owed Warner Bros for fronting the money for Electric Lady studios.
Yes, that pressure was certainly there, but I don't see that this can be attributed to Jeffery, just a fact that he had to pay for the studio. As regards his next album he had hardly recorded any usable studio recorded songs since Rainy Day Dream Away in May 1968 (mostly, I would argue, due the outrageous Chalpin LP "settlement" by Warner Bros.) and they were the 5 BOGs ones I mentioned earlier recorded in the winter of 69/70, so I would imagine Jimi wasn't needing "pressure" from Jeffery to realise he should get on and finish a new LP shortly. I believe that the tour would have paid a good part of the loan, the studio was up and running in mid 70 and would be earning cash too, all before his next album release, anyway.

I'll look out the Ebony article, nice photos, funnily mentions him as being a 'black Elvis' I believe?


This isn't going to turn into a micturating contest is it?:) Only putting things as I see them...

stplsd
12-28-09, 10:54 AM
(apart from "We Gotta Live Together" which was, with "Them Changes" a deal to give royalties to Miles).


Not to mention also a good ploy to avoid giving Chalpin any of his new songs - heheh (although pleasant Who Knows is basically just a bit of call and response scatology) He only really gave Chalpin 3 new compositions non of them completely finished: Power of Soul; Message to Love and Machine Gun. Hence Chalpin was left feeling short changed (as I imagine was Jimi's intention) after his wait of over a year for what he had hoped would be an LP of original Hendrix compositions recorded by the JHE in a studio - ha-ha-ha.

The Earth Blues
12-28-09, 12:08 PM
Well, it's really what was on Jimi's "Band Of Gypsys". He had cherry picked the best tracks (apart from "We Gotta Live Together" which was, with "Them Changes" a deal to give royalties to Miles).
It's a shame that Jimi didn't come back to "Who Knows" during 1970 don't you think ?



I'll have to go back through "A Box Of Gypsys" to handle that question but I do remember that I felt that many songs missed the mark. Jimi admitted it himself, apologising almost to the crowd that they were just jamming etc.
Of course, and there were a lot of "off" moments...but you said on the Live at the Fillmore East Album and Band of Gypsys album NOT the "A Box of Gypsys"...because on Live at the Fillmore East/Band of Gypsys, in my opinion, there were were not many down moments.

Olvator
12-28-09, 12:47 PM
what a question. Of course Monterey! I mean, as we talk about "career defining"...

TwoAlpha
12-28-09, 02:44 PM
Monterey, it's not even close really. Just think about how many people had heard of him prior to Monterey versus afterwards. It was a monster step forward for his "career".
Jimi's playing was pretty decent at the New Years gigs but the band was already on it's last legs. I doubt very much that Jimi would have wanted to have his career defined by those shows!

purple jim
12-29-09, 02:25 PM
…Chalpin was left feeling short changed (as I imagine was Jimi's intention) after his wait of over a year for what he had hoped would be an LP of original Hendrix compositions recorded by the JHE in a studio - ha-ha-ha.

Exactly, and that's why Chalpin came back asking for more. This was/is still going on. Chalpin set up the Purple Haze Records and Radioactive/Reclamaition Records releases in order to draw fire from Janie & Co. and thus expose their flawed claims to exclusivity of rights to Jimi's legacy. He failed in his quest, so he continues to try and make cash out of repackaged bootlegs on the MSi and Voodoo Chile Records labels.

bogey_j
12-29-09, 09:51 PM
Exactly, and that's why Chalpin came back asking for more. This was/is still going on. Chalpin set up the Purple Haze Records and Radioactive/Reclamaition Records releases in order to draw fire from Janie & Co. and thus expose their flawed claims to exclusivity of rights to Jimi's legacy. He failed in his quest, so he continues to try and make cash out of repackaged bootlegs on the MSi and Voodoo Chile Records labels.

that guy's a real scumbag

stplsd
12-30-09, 04:41 AM
that guy's a real scumbag

^
Sure is!