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MourningStar
04-28-08, 01:07 AM
After some random observations I will have to sympathize with the people that are really trying to raise their ratios. Many shows have multiple seeders with very good ratios that should be pulling out so that the lower ratio members can get their ratios up. I understand this makes the leechers d/l faster but so what?!! Everyone that hooks up to a fresh torrent is at the mercy of one seeder anyway! This 'condition' HAS gone on since the beginning and even I was guilty of seeding a torrent way beyond necessary. But now that we are talking ratio enforcement I thought I would notice a community-wide "change", as it were. Hmmmm, ... how about setting up the software so that when a downloader has 'given back what he took' it gives him the boot? Thus, the torrent never has more than one seeder at a time! Might help to discourage the hit&runner-types, no? Yeah, I know, it's ludicrous. But so is ratio-enforcement under these conditions. Let's work together here peoples.

tWreCK
04-28-08, 02:32 AM
You can setup uTorrent to do just that ;)

MourningStar
04-28-08, 02:44 AM
^
I assume all understand I am not referring to the client s/w.

tWreCK
04-28-08, 09:12 AM
Yeah, I know you were referring to the tracker but if everyone could do this on their own there would be no need for a tracker enforcement (if that's even possible).

MourningStar
04-28-08, 11:15 AM
Agreed. Well this subject seems to have 'faded away'. Oh well! Let's see what happens after that poll closes. The 'majority' are in favor of a combined ban/warning. I hope my above take on all this is taken into consideration when members begin to recieve their warnings or are banned.

douchebagsden
04-28-08, 11:51 AM
I am only at .25 but I go up everytime I check, last time I checked it was .22, so hopefully I can meet this hefty demand of .50

this kind of makes no sense, we are going to have to keep getting newer users in order for people to keep seeding the material out, and with certain people wanting to this to be a small site, I don't see how this can be achieved for everyone.

Naturally, there are those who have much more time to seed it out, to punish those who are trying to give back but can only do so much sucks.

Ganoosh
04-28-08, 01:33 PM
Based on a suggestion made by Paul56 in another thread I've been stopping my seeds once I get to 1:1, In an effort to give newer members a chance at seeding.

I know of a few high ratio users here that don't do this and I think it would be nice of more to try.

tWreCK
04-28-08, 02:28 PM
I don't know how many of u use uTorrent but for those that do it's simple to set the ratio to say 100-120% (a little more than a 1:1 ratio) and then have it stop automatically. No need to monitor ir or anything - very convenient. Try it out and help the community :)

MourningStar
04-28-08, 07:36 PM
^
Yes, that would be one step in the right direction.

hawkfan369
04-28-08, 07:51 PM
Agreed. Well this subject seems to have 'faded away'. Oh well! Let's see what happens after that poll closes. The 'majority' are in favor of a combined ban/warning. I hope my above take on all this is taken into consideration when members begin to recieve their warnings or are banned.

nothing has faded away...but I have a life too.

I was hoping this would never be an issue...and to me it's a pretty small one.

It's not easy dealing with 900 members you know. I ask you to be patient.

Pat

MourningStar
04-28-08, 07:56 PM
I was hoping this would never be an issue...and to me it's a pretty small one.

I am in violent agreement!

Emilovious
05-03-08, 01:03 AM
Based on a suggestion made by Paul56 in another thread I've been stopping my seeds once I get to 1:1, In an effort to give newer members a chance at seeding.

I know of a few high ratio users here that don't do this and I think it would be nice of more to try.

Well, Ganoosh, I think it's not fair to expect from members with normal ratio (or high) to keep track of these things too. If you're a member with low ratio and you need a boost and you see me seeding on a thread you're seeding too
you have two options.
1. Move on another torrent where I'm not present (I know it's hard to believe but I' not "omnipresent" on this site)
2. PM me and kindly ask to stop because of this or that.

Please, before you do any of the above, always keep in mind that a certain thread might have quite a few seeders and only one or two who are actually "giving" more than 1 or 2 KB/s. Torrents are not just about sharing. They are also about efficiency. Don't ask anyone to stop seeding if you're not able to offer at least 30KB/s of upload ALONE for the specific torrent. We also have to think of people who are downloading. For example, I'm sure you wouldn't like the situation where you'll have to download certain torrent for days because the guy who's uploading can give you only 4 or 5 KB/s and the rest of the seeders have gone because he needs to boost his ratio - ????.
MO.

MourningStar
05-03-08, 01:22 AM
... you have two options.
1. Move on another torrent where I'm not present (I know it's hard to believe but I' not "omnipresent" on this site)
2. PM me and kindly ask to stop because of this or that...

No no no. There's no need for this Emil, you simply set your client to stop seeding after a pre-set upload limit (as was previously suggested).

Emilovious
05-03-08, 01:57 AM
No no no. There's no need for this Emil, you simply set your client to stop seeding after a pre-set upload limit (as was previously suggested).

Please, read the rest of my message.
You obviously didn't read it completely.

MourningStar
05-03-08, 02:36 PM
Please, read the rest of my message.
You obviously didn't read it completely.
I did read it completely. The suggestion remains!

Emilovious
05-04-08, 05:30 PM
OK, Since you've read it all, you obviously didn't understand it.
So, I'll put it another way.
There's more than 150 different torrents on the site.
What do you think, how many torrents would be actually active at this precise moment if all the seeders would have gone after reaching only 1.0 ratio (for every single one of them, of course)?
How many, what do you think?
My estimate = 0 or 1 (maybe)
Yours?

Oh yes, even if some of them would (by some miracle) still be alive, what speed could a newbie expect (the one who would like to download some of these old torrents)??
My estimate: 0.00 -1.00 KB/s
Yours:

MourningStar
05-04-08, 07:58 PM
I did understand completely. However, you do not. Read the first post in this topic. Check dictionary for definition of term 'ludicrous' and meditate on context in which it is used.

douchebagsden
05-04-08, 09:29 PM
.45! almost to the minimum :)

everyone needs to download this and forget about ratios for just a second and realize what the true intentions of these amazing recordings, the intentions behind what the taper put out there for us all to hear. I think the ratio prize winners tend to forget their not the ones who actually taped these shows...

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57996

JamminJ
05-04-08, 09:48 PM
IMHO because some of the 'ratio hogs' were evident I was able to download over 14GB of fantastic Jimi music in less than a day!!! My ratio after doing this was a paltry .05 I am a new member who found soooo much ATM files available I was willing to get banned for having a low ratio. Then I read the FAQ and realized I could boost my share tremendously by uploading something not already on the tracker.So I uploaded a video dvd and kept all my other downloaded stuff running, and within just 3 days my ratio is now 0.46 and will climb even higher when I upload my next dvd.
So,....what does this mean to this discussion? It means if you really want to share, your ratio can be increased and as long as someone isn't banned for a low ratio when they are seeding back what they took everything will be fine in the end. As Jimi said "We have time, there's no big rush."

Emilovious
05-04-08, 10:38 PM
Well, MourningStar, I don't know which torrent sites you're member of, but I'm sure that you're not a member of any site that enforces 1.0 minimum ratio policy because with such an experience you wouldn't talk such ludicrous ..... ahhmm.
It's a ludicrous thought to switch a responsibility of a good ratio to anyone else but yourself. People with high ratios are not a problem on this or any other torrent site.

Few examples:
TV Torrents - you actually can't join the site if you don't UPLOAD FIRST something there (more than 200.000 members, and NOBODY has a ratio less than 1.0. in fact, there's no ratio measurement there at all but how much you actually uploaded more than downloaded and it's called "credit", me, for example - I'm at the moment in plus, or in "credit" 170 GBs - you can check, user emilovius, same like here).

TheBox (members 80.000, not a single member with less than 1.0 ratio except newbies which are allowed to have lower ratio the first week of membership.
If you fall under 1.0, you automatically can't download any more, you get a "peasant" status and have a week to improve it above 1.0 or you're OUT!
My ratio there is 1.34, they measure the "credit" too, I'm 52 GBs in plus at the moment - user emilovius, same as here).

Bitsoup (more than 100.000 members, minimum 1.0 ratio, if you fall under, you get 24 hours delay to download new torrents and and you have two weeks to improve your ratio - if not - you can't download anything and have two more weeks to reach - if not - OUT!! (My ratio isn't impressive, but still above 1.0, it's 1.064 at the moment - been downloading a lot - lol - user emiovius).

The advantage of the above sites is that you can download at any time thousands of torrents in speed of light and torrents practically never die. I just downloaded 7.5 GBs torrent in 2 hours and that's not an exception! At the same time nobody's complaining, nobody has ratio less than 1,0 so what's the conclusion?
THERE'S NO LUDICROUS CONDITIONS ON THIS SITE JUST IDEAS AND THOUGHTS.

P.S.
Just read the JamminJ's post. Congratulations my friend.
You've made a mistake, but like any inteligent person
you soon realized where you've made it and corrected it.
MourningStar?

MourningStar
05-05-08, 12:04 AM
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa206/birgitta1963/Smilies/KatzeinHngematte.gif

vinylguy
05-05-08, 01:44 PM
The facts, as I see them:

1. There will always be members that because of greed/selfishness or technical limitations (ISP issues, computer access, HD space) won't/can't maintain a ratio of near or over 1.00. To offset these members and keep the site functioning, other members need to maintain a ratio over 1.00.

2. Without the constant addition of new members, we can't all have a ratio of over 1.00.

3. Setting a maximum ratio (even a voluntary one) for seeders will only slow everything down. Those with higher upload speeds will be gone quickly, leaving only seeders with slower upload speeds for the leechers that come later. (I have reached share ratios over 2.00 before I've even finished downloading a torrent!)

A possible solution:

In my experience with other bit-torrent trackers, Hunger City seems to have implemented a reasonable solution with its "karma points" system. By rewarding users for the time spent seeding a torrent, it seperates the deadbeats from those suffering from technical limitations. While not perfect, it puts the slower uploaders on a more nearly equal basis with the faster uploaders.
Combined with some type of minimum ratio enforcement system, this seems to me, while not perfect, to be the best way to handle the issue.

Having spent my $0.02, I open the floor to comments!

Emilovious
05-06-08, 09:41 AM
"2. Without the constant addition of new members, we can't all have a ratio of over 1.00."

I know this sounds logical. I also thought so for years. However, it's not exactly true. I'll post mathematical proof here soon when I'll have some more time to spare.
P.S.
More accurate statement would be "without constant addition of new TORRENTS we can't all have ratio over 1.0", that's what's in fact crucial in this case, not number of members - but about it in detail some other time.

vinylguy
05-06-08, 12:49 PM
Emilovious, I can accept your point without the mathematical proof! (Not my favorite subject when I was a student) The key, it seems, is growth, whether in the number of torrents or number of members, or a combination of both. I'm not familiar with the trackers you mentioned in your earlier post, but I'm curious as to how long they have maintained this minimum of 1.00 share ratio. Again, the mathematical logic may be lacking in my thoughts on this, but it would appear that an ever increasing rate of growth would be necessary to sustain this over a period of time. Sort of a "pyramid scheme" situation, that at some point could no longer be sustained.

But anyway...I'm not trying to support the contention that we should have a minimum share ratio of 1.00 of higher. The thing I feel most important, is to find a solution that wouldn't penalize or exclude users or potential users because of lack of money to purchase faster internet service (which in some rural areas near me, is not even an option; DSL is the best you can do) or a larger capacity HD. The effort required on my part to maintain a relatively high share ratio is minimal, and I gladly do it to allow those with slower upload speeds to be a part of the community and enjoy the great music that circulates via this site! I even burn CD's for some of my friends and co-workers who don't participate or don't have the wherewithal to participate in the bit-torrent community!

One final question, that has been touched on in some of the previous posts; Is it possible to share too much? This is something that I have pondered for some time and have never really seen addressed in any of the forums of the trackers I use. When (if ever) does having a high share ratio cross the line and become a greedy or self-aggrandizing thing? Greedy in the sense of not allowing others (with slower upload speeds) to effectively share, because by the time I stop seeding a given torrent, the ratio of seeders to leechers is high and most of the users who are interested have probably finished downloading. Self-aggrandizing in the obvious sense, "My share ratio is higher than yours, so I'm a more important member/better person than you". (BTW Emilovious, please don't think this a veiled reference to you. I don't compare my ratio with other users, but the information is right there in the forum postings) I raise this question only to hear other opinions and clarify my own thoughts on the topic.

douchebagsden
05-06-08, 01:04 PM
I have talked with tapers from different decades and they all kind of laugh at this ratio bullshit when they are the ones giving it to everyone, they were the ones who went to the show and taped and they put it out publically as it is for everyone. Everyone keeps charting a progress chart of how much they put in, I've taped shows myself, and I did it so everyone who wasn't there could enjoy it, not so some jack ass on a website can claim prizes based upon his ratio.

I'd say do it like the most succesful bootleg site out there, dimeadozen. Have a .25 minimum as it reinforces the fact that you have to give back somewhat, but you don't have to meet a hefty demand if that is what it is for you. Not everyone is old and has careers where they can leave their computers on all day to seed at home.

Emilovious
05-06-08, 07:11 PM
Well,you're either very young or ....else!
You obviously did not speak with many tapers because
you'd know that not necessary all of them are very nice
guys (read the famous thread on Trader's Dan consistiong
of more than 7000 posts to learn more about them).
Sharing here doesn't include only audience recordings.
In fact audience recordings are usually the worst part of
any collection. Yes, some of them are OK but most of
them serve just the archival purpose. Not many people
actually listen to them. The most important part of any
Hendrix collection are actually studio-outtakes and
soundboard concert recordings which are acquired through
completely different channels. You can laugh as much as
you want, you can call DIME the best torrent site (??)
but those people who actually keep the torrents alive
are important. Those who started them are important.
I'm really curious what would you be able to download
if all the seeders from this site stopped suddenly and
left all the job to the original tapers?
Thepharaosden, have you actually thought for a single
second before you wrote your last post?
One more thing, Pharaosden. When you asked for the
New York Pop audience sources to be posted here on
the site, did you asked the original tapers to do it for you
or us, members of this site? I ask, because when I
uploaded it (for you), you didn't have the decency to
show up, say thank you and actually download the torrent.
If you can't do that, do not post any requests and ask
"your friends", original tapers to send you everything
you might need in the future.

douchebagsden
05-06-08, 10:19 PM
open your mind outside of something that deals with jimi hendrix, I was refering to the taping community in general. You need Jimi Hendrix detox, seriously.

Respond with something that doesn't cry out I need help with my Jimi Hendrix obsession please.

also, I am a part of a taping community who has been around for years, people like you are a big joke within these communities, trust me when I say this.

Anything else you wanted to say vicarious one?

Oh and thank you for the new york pop seed, I did grab it, and I thought I did thank the seeders in the thread, sorry if I hadn't. I do say thanks on all the shws I grab.

You're not that special though, because you claim your ratio as a prize, something I helped extend with my request, so a thanks would be in line ;)

MourningStar
05-06-08, 10:38 PM
open your mind outside of something that deals with jimi hendrix, I was refering to the taping community in general. You need Jimi Hendrix detox, seriously.

Respond with something that doesn't cry out I need help with my Jimi Hendrix obsession please.

also, I am a part of a taping community who has been around for years, people like you are a big joke within these communities, trust me when I say this.

Anything else you wanted to say vicarious one?

Oh and thank you for the new york pop seed, I did grab it, and I thought I did thank the seeders in the thread, sorry if I hadn't. I do say thanks on all the shws I grab.

You're not that special though, because you claim your ratio as a prize, something I helped extend with my request, so a thanks would be in line ;)
I'm sure minds here are open to things outside the Hendrix community. However, keep in mind that this site is exclusively Hendrix-oriented and I'm sure all communications have this in mind. Your tone could use improvement.

douchebagsden
05-06-08, 11:14 PM
my tone is perfectly fine, I am a little tired of people who seed out shows and come down on others who don't have the time or capability to live up to that persons standards. especially when that person never taped the show. I could see the taper putting forth an expected ratio for all users who download it, but not some person who collects bootlegs.

I have taped many shows, if someone who seeds expects everyone else to seed as much as they do, then it makes me expect them to tape shows and become a more crucial aspect of the trading communities than sharing a file online.

No taper, no recorded show, but there's plenty of people who can set up a torrent online; unless you want to try and compare that with taping a concert, especially with the old analog decks.

MourningStar
05-06-08, 11:35 PM
^
WTF ??!!!?? Point me to a clear example of this "coming down" on people you are referring to.

douchebagsden
05-07-08, 12:36 AM
this thread, lots of complaining occured in this thread about people who should have an upload rate of 1.0 or more.

Emilovious
05-07-08, 05:02 AM
Error, sorry read the next post please.

Emilovious
05-07-08, 05:27 AM
....lots of complaining occured in this thread about people who should have an upload rate of 1.0 or more.

I see this thread as a discussion about principles. In fact I gave the only vote for the" .25 is acceptable" in the pool at the "Leeching and Share Ratios" thread. I personally do understand all the reasons why could some people be in the situation of having their ratio less than 1.0. I just can't stand the efforts to prove that people with higher ratios than 1.0 are cause for their problems. Also I see the difference between tolerating the 0.25 ratio and saying "0.25 is OK".

P.S.
Oh yes, I'm "taping" shows regularly. However, Jimi Hendrix hasn't been visiting my town lately and the shows I'm recording are probably not the majority's "cup of tea" here (I record only classical music).

P.P.S.
What "taping community" exactly are you part of for years? Could you disclose that for us? Or is it some "secret" taping community?
I can also tell you that all those "tapers" and "high collectors" from various "secret communities" who are members of this site too and actually watch over everything but never post a single comment are a big JOKE
too in collector's circles. Did you know that?

MourningStar
05-07-08, 11:44 AM
^
WTF ??!!!?? Point me to a clear example of this "coming down" on people you are referring to.
this thread, lots of complaining occured in this thread about people who should have an upload rate of 1.0 or more.
Just as I thought, juvenile noise.

Look dude, 'complaining' (your words) is way different that 'coming down' (your words again) on people, which you are more than guilty of for your flaming of Emil the way you did. I'm really surprised you didn't get banned for this adolescent behavior. I was banned here under another username for being guilty of way less than the childishness you are revealing of yourself. (get it together kid, while the mods/admins are lookin' the other way)

douchebagsden
05-07-08, 11:56 AM
nothing needs to be togethar beyond what is already there, step off your ego trip and let's look at this from all angles.

let's not get involved in symantics, I meant what I meant, if you took it further then what I meant, that is your problem.

If I get banned, who fucking cares, this isn't the only source for Jimi bootlegs, just one to back everything up in a digital format very quickly. I do appreciate the seeders here, but the perceptions of everything going on between you to is childish. I talk about expanding awarness of the community and some of you say no, we like our knitting circle but yet you want everyone to have the ability to get a a high ratop, something dial up users or people who are extremely busy might not be able to do.

oh and mourningstar, emilov has been taking cheat shops at me for quite some time, before I took any at him, do you not remember how he/she blew up after I made a joke, all of it doing with him feeling I didn't have the grounds to make a joke because of my ratio. That's elitism on a whole different level. if I get banned, I am requesting he/she get banned as well.

and no mourningstar, I don't mean he literally blew up

This place gets more masonic by the day...

johanincr
05-07-08, 12:09 PM
This thread is now closed.

We'll talk about Share Ratios and 'Enforcement' in the future.
None of the participants in this thread have a share-ratio that they should worry about or be ashamed of.

The only people it applies to are the ones who never say anything, let alone thanks, and download as much as possible while consciously uploading as little as possible. (aka Hit and Running)

I had a look at some statistics, over 75% of our nearly 1000 members has NEVER made a single comment on the site (!)

Its not that any comment is preferable to no comment, but a tiny bit more participation might just benefit us all.