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View Full Version : What REALLY happened at the MSG Winter Festival For Peace 01/28/70???



danksquad
04-02-11, 12:19 AM
This was a topic of conversation in another thread, but this seems like a more appropriate forum to discuss the shady business that went down at the Winter Festival For Peace at Madison Square Garden on January 28th 1970.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX_a3jb6h4s

Here's what we know:
By many accounts, Hendrix seemed disturbed and agitated before taking the stage. He was under pressure from his manager Mike Jeffrey to break up the Band Of Gypsys and re-form the Experience.

Hendrix took the stage at 3AM, and made a rude comment to a girl in the audience.
The Band Of Gypsys performed only 2 songs in this aborted set. "Who Knows" and "Earth Blues". Both performances were spacey and abstract. Towards the end of "Earth Blues", Jimi makes the comment "That's what happens when Earth f*cks with space." He then abruptly stops playing as Cox and Miles continue the song.

Some accounts have Hendrix literally sitting down on the stage, while other reports say he walked off before "Earth Blues" was finished. Another account says Hendrix stumbled and fell while walking off the stage.

Left holding the bag, Buddy comments that they couldn't "get it together".
After the show, Buddy was immediately fired by Mike Jeffrey and the Band Of Gypsys were disbanded.

So what happened?
Did someone drug Jimi backstage?
If so, who did it?

Or, was this Jimi's way of showing his frustration from being stuck in the middle of the Band Of Gypsys & Mike Jeffery? Did he just crack under the pressure?

Another theory has Jimi's girlfriend, Devon Wilson, slipping something into his drink.

Was it all just a plot by Jimi's management to gain control?

danksquad
04-02-11, 07:13 AM
"I was fortunate enough to see them just about a year later, as part of the massive Winter Festival for Peace at Madison Square Garden. Sadly, Hendrix was too stoned to play much (Buddy maintained that he was purposely 'dosed' with two hits of acid backstage), and it was up to Miles to try and pull it all together. It was a short set."
---Red Kelly

danksquad
04-02-11, 07:16 AM
From the Jimi Hendrix online Encyclopedia:
http://www.jimihendrix.com/us/encyclopedia#tag=1084%2C503&per_page=5

"Billed as the "Winter Festival For Peace," Peter Yarrow (Peter, Paul & Mary) and Sid Bernstein, event producers, announced that their services would be donated and that all proceeds of the event will go to the Vietnam Moratorium effort. The five-hour festival slated from 8 p.m. to 1 a.m. will feature Harry Belafonte; Blood, Sweat & Tears; Dave Brubeck; Richie Havens; Mother Earth; Peter, Paul & Mary; The Rascals; The Cast of Hair; Judy Collins, and Jimi Hendrix & his Band Of Gypsys.

Suffering from exhaustion and the effects of a drink laced with an unknown substance taken before the show, Hendrix failed to execute his musical plans this evening. Having completed just two songs, "Who Knows" and "Earth Blues" the only thing Hendrix could do at that point was drop his guitar and sit down on the stage, meanwhile Miles and Cox continue to roll through the back beats. As Alfred Aronowitz later recalled in his New York Post column, "The crowd has already gotten twice its money's worth when Jimi Hendrix stopped playing in the middle of his second number, said 'That's what happens when Earth ***** with Space, never forget that, that's what happens.'" ... "Jimi got up, put his guitar down and walked offstage."

"When he came off stage," explained Alan Douglas "he actually fell off the apron. At first I thought he was hurt, but he wasn't. I then ran backstage to the dressing room to see if in fact he was okay. There he was sitting playing the guitar and smiling. I don't know what went through his mind when he was on stage, but the first thing I noticed, it looked like he was having a big rhythm problem. I think he just got fed up."

Backstage, Jimi meets Johnny Winter. In recounting the meeting Winter explains, "I saw Jimi backstage at the Madison Square Garden concert, the one where he just couldn't play. When I saw him, it gave me chills. It was the most horrible thing I'd ever seen. He came in with this entourage of people, and it was like he was already dead. He just walked in - and even though Jimi and I weren't the greatest of friends, we always talked, always - and he came in with his head down, sat on the couch alone, and put his head in his hands. He didn't say a word to anybody, and no one spoke to him. He didn't move until it was time for the show. He really wanted to do that gig, but he never should have. It wasn't that it was bad, but his whole thing was inspiration, and there wasn't any. It was just completely uninspired; finally, right in the middle of a song, he just took his guitar off, sat on the stage - the band was still playing - and told the audience, "I'm sorry, we just can't get it together." One of his people said he was sick, and lead him off stage. He was just so unhappy that there was no way that he could play the show. It didn't have anything to do with the group - he had already died!"

cool9
04-03-11, 02:06 PM
Sounds like he was frustrated with Jeffries. Maybe Jeffries gave him some kind of ultimatum with respect to BOG (maybe involving money or his contract?) and Hendrix had no other choice but to break up the band.

Vibratory
04-21-11, 07:53 AM
The 'earth vs space' comment implies to me not all was well between jimi and buddy. jimi was under influence of some sort, his watery hollow eyes apparent on all photographs. i dont buy the jeffery/wilson spike story.
Frustration between jimi/buddy, pressure from Jeffery combined with some bad dough led to this disastrous gig imo. the 'jimi was already dead' folklore is a bag of nonsense. jimi stopped a gig b4 was he dead then too? nonsense.

MourningStar
04-21-11, 10:09 AM
The 'earth vs space' comment implies to me not all was well between jimi and buddy.Miles & Hendrix got along just fine with both doing great stuff in the studio post-BOG (Miles also opened for the next Hendrix tour). Gotta look elsewhere me thinks.

kees1954
04-21-11, 01:58 PM
What always puzzled me is that Mike Jeffery went through a lot of costs to have Jimi filmed at the Winter Carnival (he also kept all the footage together with the Berkeley footage). What I would like to know whether it was Jeffery's plan to film Jimi. Alan Douglas later claimed the idea to film Jimi, and "bicycle" the concert film to cinemas around the world so Jimi would have to perform less in person. All of this must have been connected with the stress of getting finances for the Electric Lady Studios with all the disasters that went along with its construction.

Vibratory
04-21-11, 05:35 PM
Douglas might have coined the idea but he certainly wasn't the producer?


Miles & Hendrix got along just fine with both doing great stuff in the studio post-BOG (Miles also opened for the next Hendrix tour). Gotta look elsewhere me thinks.

yes i agree they didnt hate each other. but there is plenty of testimony even from billy cox (?ref mitch?) that there was friction from time to time. im not sure how much and i always thought it not so bad to warrant the 'earth f*cks with space' comment.
but i tend to think there was more then i previously thought. or i might be misinterpreting the comment altogether. billy was there we should ask him:P

MourningStar
04-21-11, 07:23 PM
... there was friction from time to time. ...nothing unique, ALL bands have it.

Vibratory
04-22-11, 02:25 AM
nothing unique, ALL bands have it.

thanks for your insightful nuances:)
yes and all bands have disastrous gigs from time to time. and so we agree.:o

stplsd
04-22-11, 05:35 AM
By many accounts, Hendrix seemed disturbed and agitated before taking the stage.
More like 'some say'


He was under pressure from his manager Mike Jeffrey to break up the Band Of Gypsys and re-form the Experience.

After the show, Buddy was immediately fired by Mike Jeffrey and the Band Of Gypsys were disbanded.



That is seriously debateable


Another theory has Jimi's girlfriend, Devon Wilson, slipping something into his drink.

Where does this come from?

MourningStar
04-22-11, 10:40 AM
... yes and all bands have disastrous gigs from time to time. and so we agree.:owe agree about inter-band friction. However, all bands do not have disastrous gigs. Not a single gig of the multitude of bands I've been in ever had a bad, let alone disastrous gig. Perhaps a disastrous tune or two or an 'off' night. I doubt we were an exception, whatever, it still renders the 'all bands' assertion inert.

back to topic -
danksquad, the title "What REALLY happened ..." - When it comes to Hendrix and any question starting like this, 40+ years after the fact, well ... seriously, do you REALLY expect to nail it?

stplsd
04-22-11, 01:32 PM
BC: "What went down was very embarrassing, and it left Jimi angry and disillusioned. It was unfortunate. Buddy and I walked over to Madison Square Garden, went into the dressing room and there was Jimi. He was not in the best shape. Jimi was sitting next to Jeffery and we knew it wasn't going to work. Jimi was in bad shape. We thought about not going out there, because someone was trying to make assholes out of us, but we did. We thought Jimi might be able to make it, but we only got through that one song before it started coming apart."

BM: "I was hurt when management [Mike Jeffery] told me that I was fired. It was for no obvious reason, as far as I could see. That rejection hurt me because I know that it didn't come from Jimi personally [Jimi hated personal confrontations]. Jimi never once said to me that I was fired or that he didn't want to use me anymore. I felt rejected. I was hurt because I broke up my band [the Buddy Miles Express]. Regardless of how fast I could have got back into it or not, that was neither here nor there. I was a part of somebody that I really wanted to be a part of. Of course I knew the man hadn't even reached his peak yet. I think he had reached the pinnacle with Mitch and Noel because he wasn't getting off anymore and I feel that me and Billy gave him that."

BC: "Buddy and I thought that because they had successfully marketed the Jimi Hendrix Experience as being these two white guys, with Jimi in the middle, they didn't want to change horses midstream and go with three black guys up there."

Trixie Sullivan: "The relationship Mike Jeffery had as man­ager of the Hendrix Experience, had with Jimi, was very simple. Mike took care of all the business side of things, got money when he could, and he left Jimi totally in charge of the artistic side of it. Mike would arrange all his tours but he would not interfere with the music side of things. He didn't feel that he had that right. So when it came to Jimi not being happy, on any level with the music side of things, if he men­tioned it to Mike, that he couldn't deal with it himself, or he wasn't happy, and he didn't know what to do . . . then Mike would have done it for him. But under no circumstances would Mike Jeffery come in and sack people without Jimi's permission, approval, and in fact his instigation of the whole act. Because Jimi was very specific about his music, it was his, and that's where he really excelled. Mike was very good on the man­agement side. So if you are talking specifically about Buddy Miles leaving the group and Mike sacking him, it would have been totally on Jimi's instigation, but he wouldn't have had the nerve to do it himself, because it was his friend, and he wouldn't know how to do it. So he would get Mike to do it for him. And that was normal in our organization."

JMcD [according to who?]: “Jimi was aggravated by Miles’ presumptive behaviour and abuse of privileges such as limousine services, dental work, and airline tickets for family members.”

BC: “Jimi truly loved Buddy, but he was the star. He was the boss. This was an unspoken issue, but all you have to do is listen to any Band Of Gypsys performance and you will hear it. We musicians have to be careful not to cross these boundary lines. You have to pay homage to Caesar. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Sometimes that did not happen. That disturbed Jimi, and I think Buddy finally became aware of this by the end."

BC: "I saw that I wasn't wanted, so I came back to Nashville and decided to do something else." [Buddy asked me to join his reformed Express, but I declined. Although I did fly to Chicago to add fuzz bass to Miles's album version of "Them Changes.]"

MourningStar
04-22-11, 01:50 PM
^
JMcD, 'according to who' is right. Grain of salt there. Trixie, as MJ's flunkie: no surprise as to her position. Mile & Cox have the cred. However, nothing here as to "What REALLY happened ..." - gonna have get more details from Cox for the final nail.

danksquad
04-22-11, 03:53 PM
"Another theory has Jimi's girlfriend, Devon Wilson, slipping something into his drink."

This theory is attributed to Johnny Winter who was with Hendrix backstage at MSG that night:

"Buddy Miles claimed that manager Michael Jeffery dosed Hendrix with LSD in an effort to sabotage the current band and bring about the return of the Experience lineup; blues legend Johnny Winter said it was Hendrix's girlfriend Devon Wilson who spiked his drink with drugs for unknown reasons."
http://www.websters-dictionary-online.com/definitions/jimi%20hendrix?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=jimi%20hendrix&sa=Search#906

danksquad
04-22-11, 04:03 PM
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/imager/jimi-hendrix-and-devon-wilson-1970/b/original/1082953/8585/1120886.t.jpg

A famous photo of Devon and Jimi backstage at "The Winter Festival For Peace" on Jan 28, 1970^^^^^^^^

Vibratory
04-22-11, 08:46 PM
we agree about inter-band friction. However, all bands do not have disastrous gigs. Not a single gig of the multitude of bands I've been in ever had a bad, let alone disastrous gig. Perhaps a disastrous tune or two or an 'off' night. I doubt we were an exception, whatever, it still renders the 'all bands' assertion inert.a rock and roll band high profile, drugs. pressure, people, ,egos,fatigue, ups downs, parties,hotels,contracts, logistics,writing,reccording studios,jams,clubs you never had a drummer showing up late? never a row? never depressed, sick,tired etc? all was well and happy? hippy trippy? yippiy doodle snoodle?
coodle noodle foodle? are you saying that? well apparently not the foodle doodle snoodle.......

ill rephrase:
some rock and roll bands have disastrous gigs sometimes. there, i stripped it of all absolutes.


the title "What REALLY happened ..." - When it comes to Hendrix and any question starting like this, 40+ years after the fact, well ... seriously, do you REALLY expect to nail it?
please let others indulge themselves in futility. if you do not like futile topic titles pls dont read them it is futile.

forgive me marcos i love you man:)

now back on topic
how to make lasagna; mamas recipe

Vibratory
04-22-11, 09:13 PM
why would devon spike jimis drink in the presence of johnny winter.
why would mike Jeffery who went through great lengths and cost to have jimi filmed ruin the concert at a high profile venue.
spiking someones drink is a dangerous crime and the outcome can be unpredictable, can cause permanent damage even lethal.
imo jeffery and devon would have never taken the risk seriously harming jimi period. even if they were as evil as some were led to think by various myths.

in any great story you need antagonists. we are used to them in populr culture. our fantasies surrounding our heroes/idols are constructed in the same way, we created protagonists and antagonists in our minds.
in jimi mythology it is jeffery and devon. our hero is absolved of any irratic or unreasonable behavior.
i m willing to think jimi wanted to stop BOG avoided confrontation by destroying BOG this way.it was the only way he could do it.

MourningStar
04-22-11, 09:50 PM
... i m willing to think jimi wanted to stop BOG avoided confrontation by destroying BOG this way.it was the only way he could do it.nah, nothing from Miles or Cox supports this. And there were other ways to do it, after all he was quite clever when he set his mind to it. However, since this topic is in this forum I'll contribute what could most likely be "What REALLY happend ..." : Like so many times before, Hendrix dropped some acid for the usual recreational reasons, the strength of which was more than his physical/mental condition could handle, or it was simply bad acid. An unfortunate accident, like his death.

Vibratory
04-22-11, 09:58 PM
nah, nothing from Miles or Cox supports this. And there were other ways to do it, after all he was quite clever when he set his mind to it. However, since this topic is in this forum I'll contribute what could most likely be "What REALLY happend ..." : Like so many times before, Hendrix dropped some acid for the usual recreational reasons, the strength of which was more than his physical/mental condition could handle, or it was simply bad acid. An unfortunate accident, like his death. yeah i think

this is most likely indeed. but was it REALLY? Then why was BOG disbanded?
aaah stop it vibs................bonk1

as i asserted b4 jimi wasnt spiked. so he took it himself, the bad trip was self evident. So it was accidental.
its still too early to dismiss jimi acting out his dissatisfaction with bog by giving up in this manner.
he was on a bad trip, irrational and unreasonable and in a very negative frame of mind. he gave up there and then. No painful confrontations just quit.

Vibratory
04-22-11, 10:06 PM
tnx katznkitz that was insightful. for me it shed new light on the comment:)
it still implies frustration towards mainly buddy? i tend to think

MourningStar
04-22-11, 10:19 PM
... frustration towards mainly buddy? i tend to thinkah yes, the 'friction' mentioned 'afore!

Vibratory
04-22-11, 10:26 PM
uuuuur no acctually
we are desccerning the lol my keyboard is fucccked.

MourningStar
04-22-11, 10:33 PM
pass1

Vibratory
04-22-11, 10:39 PM
you have a buddy miles fetisj! yes you doo admit it! cant blame ya though;)

listen to machine gun from the 1999 BOG release. buddy fuccks it all up and jimi was left in the shits finally diving into a very angry solo forcing buddy and billy into the right riff...

jimi was easily annoyed . katnkitzs nuanced eaplanation of the earth vs space
made it more clear.
for another example listen to mitch f*cking up the intro to HMT at RAH 18 and how jimi stubbornly keeps the coorect beat forcing mitcch to correct. evcen if it took for ever.

Vibratory
04-22-11, 10:45 PM
ah yes, the 'friction' mentioned 'afore!

no not really. the aforementioned earth fuccks with space comment made by jimi.
what do you think it meant? you had ample opportuity to shed light on it. all ive gotten is nah's and accidents

MourningStar
04-22-11, 11:00 PM
no not really. the aforementioned earth fuccks with space comment made by jimi.
what do you think it meant? you had ample opportuity to shed light on it. all ive gotten is nah's and accidentsI see no connection w/the MSG gig.

Vibratory
04-22-11, 11:10 PM
well explain. im open to it.
from my view it is odd you do not see the cconnection as jimi spoke the phrase in question at the very end of the MSG gig.
so theres your connection as far as i can see

MourningStar
04-22-11, 11:35 PM
Earth refers to ground, space to air. Sounds like equipment trouble to me. Bad cables?

katznkitz
04-22-11, 11:36 PM
"That's what happens when Earth f*cks with space."
Here is my two bits on what Jimi said. Looking back on improvising guitar masters there is an inherent structural and compositonal agreement which had to be dealt with on the musical path to travel on. In the Experience Jimi was always the astronaut going out there with Mitch following him and helping him to open up. Billy or Noel was the anchor grounding the trio so that if anyone was about to get lost the landing would always be in sight. Buddy Miles style of playing, with a pretty heavy back beat and almost no Jazziness had too much of a locking effect on Jimis playing and sometimes got him into a rut preventing him to take off in different directions. In Cream Eric had the other extreme of this problem where the other two being the jazzers in the band could fly off to some other space during the solos. This put Eric under pressure and introduced a competitive element which he did not enjoy. I also observed Carlos Santana when he was locked in a certain riff and he wanted to come out of it cueing his drummer by lowering his guitar's head stock towards the floor and moving it to one side; then the drummer would do roll and change the beats helping Carlos to move to another motif. When you are improvising on the guitar and find a nice riff and keep repeating it and the band is locked in with you it is a great high for you and the audience. Sometimes it can be problematic to come out of this. If the guitar player comes out of it and the band doesnt, the poor soul gets left there dangling or if he sticks there too long he is left there doodling until he runs out of inspiration and that is what happens when earth f*cks with space, a horrible draining feeling for the player;(

Vibratory
04-22-11, 11:42 PM
Earth refers to ground, space to air. Sounds like equipment trouble to me. Bad cables?

hehehe indeed, or maybe a giant penis in the sky? shoving it in and shoving it out?
lol this is as far as im willing to go exploring this avenue
cheers mate:)

jimi urges the audience to never forget that his cables were made out of dirt and air while a giant penis rode the night skies.
that is the final conclusion marcos and patrizio reached in this epic topic: what Really Happened........:cheese:

MourningStar
04-22-11, 11:50 PM
hehehe indeed, or maybe a giant penis in the sky? shoving it in and shoving it out?
lol this is as far as im willing to go exploring this avenue
cheers mate:)awwww ... one more:

Acid (made from 'earth'-bound materials) was fucking with his brain (that which occupies the 'space' between his ears). - Yes?

Vibratory
04-22-11, 11:59 PM
4sale1

danksquad
04-23-11, 01:23 PM
It appears that Jimi was being pulled in many different directions around the time of the MSG Band Of Gypsys show. There were too many folks around him with different agendas. Jimi was under a lot of pressure to make great music and also make lots of $$$, especially once you add Electric Lady Studios into the mix. Let's be honest, by January 1970, Jimi was a cash cow and there were a lot of folks milking him. Everybody wanted a piece of Jimi Hendrix. Lawsuits and the stress and pressure caused by success were definitely taking their toll on Jimi. He may have been suffering from a bit of depression.

The comment he made on Dick Cavett sums it all up: "Sometimes the more money you make, the more blues you can sing".

Being a sensitive artist, Jimi seems to have taken a lot of this pressure to heart. Drugs can certainly alter your mood, but they can also amplify the mood that you are already in. Especially psychedelic drugs. By 1970, Jimi had already begun using drugs to escape, and some accounts say that Mike Jeffery would use drugs to manipulate Jimi. (Especially when Jimi would ask questions about money)

So by the time January 1970 rolled around, Jimi may have been under pressure from his management to break up the BOG. Or maybe Jimi was displeased with Buddy and was then was faced with having to fire his friend from his band, while at the same time being under immense pressure to perform and make money.

It's entirely possible (and this is only speculation on my part) that Jimi took something on January 28th 1970 that he hoped would help him escape all these pressures, but instead he wound up amplifying them. Then when he hit the stage to perform at 3am (no doubt he was tired), it all just hit him at once and he had a bit of a meltdown. After all he was only human.

"Don't get too stoned, please remember you're a man"

manfree
04-23-11, 02:10 PM
Having taken LSD more times than I should:
Sometimes you loose that anchor to reality
It amazes me (knowing the strength in them days) that he could EVER play the guitar Trippin`
It was only a matter of time before it went wrong
This may have been that time

MourningStar
04-23-11, 04:17 PM
... Let's be honest, by January 1970, Jimi was a cash cow ...Let's be a tad more accurate. By April 1969 he was the highest paid concert act in the USA. Possibly earlier, anyone have off-shore estimates? As to pressure, I'm sure it began the moment ELL was wrapped up. Strange how people (even now) do not realize that the optimum condition to tolerate pressure and associated baggage is under total sobriety.

peace1

stplsd
04-24-11, 05:27 PM
This theory is attributed to Johnny Winter who was with Hendrix backstage at MSG that night:

blues legend Johnny Winter said it was Hendrix's girlfriend Devon Wilson who spiked his drink with drugs for unknown reasons."
http://www.websters-dictionary-online.com/definitions/jimi%20hendrix?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=jimi%20hendrix&sa=Search#906

Yes, but I have never seen any source given for Johnny's alleged accusation, sounds like a rumour/gossip, none of the directly quoted interviews of him mention anything of the sort.

Chris M
04-25-11, 02:38 AM
Some random thoughts but I can't believe Jimi would ever give less than 100% during a live performance. If he wanted to end the BOG I'm sure there was a better way than throwing a gig. I think something was said earlier that night, maybe en route to the gig, that really, really upset Jimi. This combined with taking something that didn't sit well with him resulted in the performance. Maybe he took a massive amount of something in an attempt to put himself in a better frame of mind that made it worse. For all the talk about Jimi's drug use/abuse it seems he was skilled at crafting the right buzz for a gig. Of course, Arhus and MSG '70 are two big exceptions.

He is clearly very distracted but I get off on much of Jimi's playing during Who Knows. That uninterrupted flow of great ideas Jimi was famous for wasn't on display but he develops a few nice themes and dynamics. He was clearly going through some heavy shit and, like always, it came out in his music. I don't know if Jimi's vocals were ever more soulful than when he sings "do I laugh baby, do I cry, do I live baby or do I die?". There is a resonance to his vocals here rarely heard on the live tapes. He sounds so desperate and defeated.

Whatever happened this tape a seriously ominous and spooky vibe to it. I would do terrible things to see the pro-shot footage. I'm reliably informed the pro shot footage exists but is buried deep underground.

dino77
04-25-11, 10:53 AM
Miles & Hendrix got along just fine with both doing great stuff in the studio post-BOG (Miles also opened for the next Hendrix tour). Gotta look elsewhere me thinks.

Hm, think they did only one jam session in the studio after MSQ. The support slot on the tour was probably just a nice gesture by Jimi.

MourningStar
04-27-11, 11:49 PM
^
The point is that there's no validation to support 'bad blood' between Miles & Hendrix.

Mysticbumwipe
04-29-11, 02:45 AM
Interesting thread.
Thanks to Vibratory and Katznkitz for some great insights. Plus also to Stplsd (that Trixie Sullivan's quote on the relationship Mike Jeffery had as manager was revealing)


The point is that there's no validation to support 'bad blood' between Miles & Hendrix.

Maybe not "badblood", but it seems perhaps there was some some irritation and creative conflict/tension.
Isn't there some quote by Jimi at the mixing board for the album BoG where he said aloud to the recording "Buddy, will you please just shut up!!".
(Was it in the book 'Setting the Record Straight' by John McDermot and Kramer?)

The song "We gotta live together" (and perhaps "Who Knows") were heavily edited to cut out some of Miles' singing.

Maybe Buddy saw himself as some kind of an 'EQUAL' to Jimi performance-wise?
I.e. Something like: "I'm the 'lead singer' and an 'equal' focus point. This is a band with two bandleaders"
The TENSION that might create would be uncomfortable and perhaps increasingly annoying for Jimi. And thus created an increasingly strained 'group' chemistry.
Plus Jimi had just got rid of that kind of thing with Noel (thinking he should have more creative input as in the early days, and why did they never do his own songs live, etc., etc.).

I am also of the opinion that Hendrix had Buddy fired ...indirectly of course.
Look how he removed Noel. He couldn't do it to his face, and then tried to be friendly later (e.g. inviting him to the Electric Ladyland opening party).

Vibratory
04-29-11, 05:10 AM
yes exactly, not forgetting the Rolling Stone interview where (mike) the Experience announced a reunion.
Nobody suggested something as heavy as 'bad blood' here afaik.
One thing is 100% sure in my mind is that Jimi viewed BoG as something temporary. It had to end somehow.

zombywoof57
04-30-11, 12:46 AM
BOG was put together rather quickly, as to get out an lp to settle the law suit(Chalpin), plus Jimi/B.Miles had been jamming together before, so, and as Noel was busy, and Mitchell un-available it was put together! there had to be conflict as was heard on the Baggies rehersals session of Message to love, where buddy ,it seemed, did not want to listen, at first, to Jimi's directions of how to sing the oooo's and ahhhh's, and yes two super-stars(Jimi/Buddy) i believe Jimi did not ,nor the management want to keep the BOG together as all the prior success came from the Experience.
Conflict amongst leaders takes away from a bands progression, and i think before the Madison Sq. show Jeffrey planned to fire Buddy to re-unite the Experience, so i agree with you VIB as jimi wanted it to end!
IMHO jimi played some of the best during the BOG times, and it was a much more Funky sound, thunder actually!


"i'm in the process of now letting my g-string down, oh hell it's really outta tune"

Mysticbumwipe
05-02-11, 07:10 AM
I've just revisited the recordings on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsOc03dwO4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WpIpyu0Chc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX_a3jb6h4s&NR=1
Listening to the two tracks again I think Jimi was improvising some really fine music. ...Though clearly not following/playing in synch with Billy and Buddy some of the time during Earth Blues.
(Perhaps he was expecting them to adapt and follow him? dunno1)

And you hear the bootlegger/tapist saying at the end that Jimi was just sitting down.

So, ...even as Buddy admits that they weren't "quite getting it together", Jimi is presumably sitting down (on the edge of the stage?) and just doodling quietly on the guitar to himself?
Bizarre behaviour to say the least.

Mysticbumwipe
05-02-11, 07:58 AM
Here's what we know:
...Hendrix took the stage at 3AM, and made a rude comment to a girl in the audience.


Sounds to me, listening to it again, that actually it was not an insult directed at any particular person.
(Its interesting how something can take on a life of its own and become accepted just through repetition.)

It seems to me instead that someone shouted out a request for the song Foxy lady and Jimi, tired of being treated like a jukebox, points out vaguely into the audience and speaks metaphorically about the song. Viz., as a girl "over there" with yellow underpants stained and covered in blood.

Jimi aften dedicated the song to a girl in the audience "with yellow underpants".
He must have had x-ray night-vision to see her from the stage. ;-)

stplsd
05-02-11, 05:37 PM
^
My original interpretation (PY = Peter Yarrow. Aud=Audience) , I ain't reconsidered it since, could be a bit different here and there, suggestions/corrections welcome:

PY : I think I can safely say, “Friends,” after the length of time we’ve all been living
together…
Aud: [Man:] You, fuck off!
PY : …This is certainly a moment that I’ve been waiting for and I’m sure all of you have -
Mr Jimi Hendrix and his Band of Gypsys
Aud: [Wild applause]
JH : [Tuning]
Aud: [Man:] Time we left!
JH : Yeah, anybody want any flowers? [tuning]
Aud: [Girl] Meee!
JH : Peace and happiness and love and forever, from the bottom of our hearts. That’s all
we can say right now. I’m gonna see if we can get some sounds together, once we
get in toon, and so close off…
Aud: [Girl/girls:] Can’t you all just sit down! etc.
JH : …mh, you know, all the little worlds that might have happened yesterday, or today, or
tomorrow. Let’s just make our own little world, right here. Let’s just fun and groove,
you know. We have Billy Cox on the-uh…
Aud: [Mass of shouting, applauding (at what?) & screaming interrupts Jimi again]
JH : …on the bass guitar and then we have [tuning] the Buddy Miles on drums for sure,
thank, thank God, and then we have, uh, Alfred E. Newman* on-uh page 17 [tuning]
Aud: [Mass of shouting & screaming]
JH : ‘Scuse me, give about a minute to-ah, like, just little bit o’ minor adjustments here
and there, okay, thank you… Goes somethin’ like this ah, I think it’s in the key of
[guitar ‘says’: ‘F’ ] ‘D’, or ‘A’, ‘G’, somethin’, I don’ know [tuning]
Aud: [Girl:] Play Foxy Lady!
JH : Foxy Lady’s sittin’ over there with the yellow underwear…
Aud: [Start applauding]
JH : …stained and dirty with blood
Aud: [They quickly stop applauding] Get the fuck out!... He’s sick!…

*Jimi was a fan of MAD comics, which featured Alfred E. Newman
At Woodstock he introduced himself with Alfred E. Newman's catch phrase: “What me worry?”

MourningStar
05-02-11, 07:57 PM
^
given this, sounds like the audience was responsible for Hendrix blowing off this concert. Who would want to to continue with an audience that tells you to 'fuck off' and 'get the fuck out'.

:p

dino77
05-03-11, 02:08 PM
^
given this, sounds like the audience was responsible for Hendrix blowing off this concert. Who would want to to continue with an audience that tells you to 'fuck off' and 'get the fuck out'.

:p


The audience, possibly bad drugs, Mike Jeffery and Buddy Miles combined.
Note how he pointedly says "the Buddy Miles".

MourningStar
05-03-11, 05:20 PM
^
given this, sounds like the audience was responsible for Hendrix blowing off this concert. Who would want to to continue with an audience that tells you to 'fuck off' and 'get the fuck out'.

:pThe audience, possibly bad drugs, Mike Jeffery and Buddy Miles combined.

Note how he pointedly says "the Buddy Miles".Why shouldn't he? Hendrix always introduced Miles w/a little extra oomf. Afterall he is/was the Buddy Miles. Those two went way way back. 'nuff said.

susep73
05-19-11, 06:23 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YQBsfGwVEeo/Sg2gLJO3knI/AAAAAAAAFkw/bY6zi2N6Pxc/s400/jimi3.jpg

the pic on the right clearly shows a "tripped out" JH.

kdion11
05-20-11, 12:48 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YQBsfGwVEeo/Sg2gLJO3knI/AAAAAAAAFkw/bY6zi2N6Pxc/s400/jimi3.jpg

the pic on the right clearly shows a "tripped out" JH.

KD: But the picture on the left seems to see him in a very
upbeat normal way.

Very strange. Devon seems to be somewhat normal looking too for a change

dino77
05-22-11, 03:44 AM
Why shouldn't he? Hendrix always introduced Miles w/a little extra oomf. Afterall he is/was the Buddy Miles. Those two went way way back. 'nuff said.

Can't recall any special oomf from Fillmore? It just sounds a bit like a jibe ("Buddy thinks he is a real star and I can't stand his guts").

MourningStar
05-22-11, 11:17 AM
... It just sounds a bit like a jibe.not to me.

danksquad
05-24-11, 02:47 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YQBsfGwVEeo/Sg2gLJO3knI/AAAAAAAAFkw/bY6zi2N6Pxc/s400/jimi3.jpg

the pic on the right clearly shows a "tripped out" JH.


Those almost look like "before and after" photos.

I have a much larger and clearer image of the picture on the right in the book "Classic Hendrix" by Ross Halfin & Brad Tolinski, and in it you can see that Hendrix is sweating and the look in his eye is chilling. It makes the hair stand up on your arms. It was not the same super-confident Jimi that we are all used to seeing.

stplsd
05-24-11, 07:13 PM
Those almost look like "before and after" photos.

I have a much larger and clearer image of the picture on the right in the book "Classic Hendrix" by Ross Halfin & Brad Tolinski, and in it you can see that Hendrix is sweating and the look in his eye is chilling. It makes the hair stand up on your arms. It was not the same super-confident Jimi that we are all used to seeing.

^
Wise up it's a split second in time and shows nothing of the person, it's just an image that a split second later might be smiling (you may think) split sec later looks like he's constipated, fit to burst, photos/shmotos.


the pic on the right clearly shows a "tripped out" JH.
No, the photo shows a split second of Jimi. Is it before or after? what was he reacting to at that second? You're just fantasising.


KD: But the picture on the left seems to see him in a very upbeat normal way.

It's just a snapshot, yes he looks fine, Johnny on the otherhand looks a bit worried, etc. etc. photo/shmoto


Very strange. Devon seems to be somewhat normal looking too for a change

Yeah, like you've seen loads of photos of Devon/and knew her well to base this on? I think she looks a bit freaked out myself, but hey, it's a split second, she might have seen something unpleasant to her at that point, we're not all mindless eternally grinning Barbie Dolls;)

MourningStar
05-24-11, 07:17 PM
^
Wise up it's a split second in time and shows nothing of the person, it's just an image that a split second later might be smiling (you may think) split sec later looks like he's constipated, fit to burst, photos/shmotos.... or not. - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/XiKano/EMOTSMILEY/rolleyes.gif

stplsd
05-24-11, 07:28 PM
... or not. - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/XiKano/EMOTSMILEY/rolleyes.gif

Exactly!

stplsd
05-24-11, 07:37 PM
^
given this, sounds like the audience was responsible for Hendrix blowing off this concert. Who would want to to continue with an audience that tells you to 'fuck off' and 'get the fuck out'.

:p

It's just lone voices close to the mic', talking/ shouting at each other ie the usual: "sit down" - "fuck off" (ie I'm not gonna sit down you prick) and some reacting to his filthy comment. He wasn't hearing that. He was the one being gross anyway! The 'show' continued

MourningStar
05-24-11, 07:41 PM
It's just lone voices close to the mic', talking/ shouting at each other ie the usual: "sit down" - "fuck off" (ie I'm not gonna sit down you prick) and some reacting to his filthy comment. He wasn't hearing that. He was the one being gross anyway!so?

stplsd
05-24-11, 07:46 PM
So, it was no big deal.

MourningStar
05-24-11, 07:53 PM
So, it was no big deal.dream on, big enough to abort that show.

stplsd
05-24-11, 08:04 PM
^
That's your opinion, many others who claim to have studied this and publshed many articles and books appear to think it was more down to other reasons than the audience, they are not in agreement (surprise) as to how well/badly the band played, the reasons, extent of the disappointment of the audience etc, etc.

We are told from some sources that if the show had gone on any longer (than when?) it would have run into "penalty clauses" and would have lost money, another possible reason for his being pissed off? ie he only had whatever short amount of time? was he the last act even?
We were told for many years that Jimi was the last act at Fehmarn and then they had to flee and the stage was burnt down by crazy 'Hells Angels', as soon as. Now we know nothing of the sort happened.

MourningStar
05-24-11, 08:10 PM
^
... they are not in agreement ....exactly!

stplsd
05-24-11, 08:28 PM
^
No. Many articles and books appear to think it was more down to other reasons than the audience, they are not in agreement (surprise) as to how well/badly the band played, the reasons, extent of the disappointment of the audience etc, etc.

MourningStar
05-24-11, 08:30 PM
... Many articles and books appear to think ...exactly!

KD: round and round

stplsd
05-24-11, 08:55 PM
No. it means what I said, that the majority of Jimi pundits/writers think it was more down to reasons other than the audience, but you "appear" to think the audience was the main reason, (always a possibility)
I have put forward an alternative that if they were the last band, and if what is claimed they would have to finish when they did or the charity would face a huge loss, rather than a profit... etc....
This was not of Aarhus proportions

MourningStar
05-24-11, 09:09 PM
... the audience was the main reason, (always a possibility)...exactly!

stplsd
05-24-11, 09:57 PM
Eh, No

MourningStar
05-24-11, 10:35 PM
Eh, YES!

danksquad
05-25-11, 02:49 PM
Yes, stplsd, a picture only represents a split second, however, a picture can also say 1,000 words. Pictures don't lie and it is clear from that photo that Jimi (in that split second) appears to be extremely "uncomforable" as he took the stage at 3am on 1-28-70, for a performance which was aborted after only 2 songs, and resulted in the disbanding of the Band Of Gypsys.

Stplsd, Why are you so bent on proving that things were "business as usual" for Jimi at Madison Square Garden that night, when all EVIDENCE seems to suggest otherwise?

kdion11
05-25-11, 05:31 PM
^Yeah, like you've seen loads of photos of Devon/and knew her well to base this on? I think she looks a bit freaked out myself, but hey, it's a split second, she might have seen something unpleasant to her at that point, we're not all mindless eternally grinning Barbie Dolls

KD: Speak for youself ! Ha ! How do you know what I've seen or not seen?
Jeeessshhhhhhhhhhhhh. Lighten up dude.

zombywoof57
06-22-11, 11:05 PM
Miles & Hendrix got along just fine with both doing great stuff in the studio post-BOG (Miles also opened for the next Hendrix tour). Gotta look elsewhere me thinks. yeah i have to agree, they jammed b4 bog,and after, so it had to be something else and i recall jimi could do more then the normal dose of acid or whatever, and handle it, so has to be something else, and i agree witk vibratory jimi was not nor did he intend to die

stplsd
06-23-11, 04:14 AM
KD: Speak for youself ! Ha ! How do you know what I've seen or not seen?
Jeeessshhhhhhhhhhhhh. Lighten up dude.

Well, have you seen loads of photos of Devon? And how well did you know her;)
I thought I was beng light:)

stplsd
06-23-11, 04:45 AM
yeah i have to agree, they jammed b4 bog,and after, so it had to be something else and i recall jimi could do more then the normal dose of acid or whatever, and handle it, so has to be something else, and i agree witk vibratory jimi was not nor did he intend to die

People often do fall out, then make up again, but not always back to the former level of friendship. The only record I can find of Hendrix playing with Miles after the 23 January is on the 16 February with a conga player, no drummer or bass player, which is just a bit of rock an' roll fun and 'Hey Baby' followed by some meandering jamming. After this jam session Mitch and Billy arrive for their first formal session together, it appears they have been rehearsing prior to this. Mitch is on a couple of days break with the Jack Bruce & Friends tour. Cox isn't happy about something on or shortly after this session and heads off back to Nashville. Mitch continues the tour. Then, presumably flies back to London. Then Jimi flew to London for a not very well documented visit. Why he went there is a bit of mystery. Sometime around the 19 March Billy returns and they start rehearsing for the tour.

That's it as far as I've seen. Jimi made a pretty emphatic statement to the press that he would not be playing with Buddy again.

stplsd
06-23-11, 05:32 AM
Pictures don't lie
Photo's don't lie (unless they're tampered with), it's how they are sometimes used that can be a lie. You only have to look at the numerous devious ways they've been used in propaganda, unscrupulous press etc.;)


Stplsd, Why are you so bent on proving that things were "business as usual" for Jimi at Madison Square Garden that night,

I haven't attempted to "prove" anything of the sort. I've merely pointed out that there are numerous interpretations of what went down that night. None of which are that it was "business as usual."

pukaha
07-03-11, 08:10 AM
I was told personally by Jim Marron that Jimi was suffering a kind of burn out after several days of heavy cocain use with Devon. Jim said he had to go to Jimis apartment and literally drag Jimi along to the gig. I'd say the pressures of everything combined caused Jimi to 'escape'. I think there was definately a conflict for Jimi with regards to Buddy. I always have a chuckle when Jimi pretents to look at his watch when Buddy is screaming away during one of the songs (I forget which one) at the Filmore gigs.

buffalorattle
07-03-11, 09:03 AM
Then Jimi flew to London for a not very well documented visit. Why he went there is a bit of mystery.


Didn't Jimi fly back to London,to record with Stephen Stills (Island Studios) and on the 17th March 70, recording with Arthur Lee (Olympic Studios) source: Electric Gypsy pg 693

stplsd
07-03-11, 09:44 AM
^
Not as far as I've seen, he just happened to be there, so got invited, the "sessions" (a bit of lead guitar on two songs and a couple of jams), didn't take more than a few hours out of his visit, on the 15th & 17th, he flew home on the 18th/19th. He seems to have been there for quite a while ((he arrived on the 7th) and there's a short piece in NME at the time by Altham that says he spoke to him at the Speakeasy, and was in England in an effort to get the old JHE back together.

ilovejimi
07-03-11, 10:23 AM
I think Buddy got on Jimi's last nerve with his god awful drumming and shrieking of his bellowing voice- hence the fair tale was over. Also wasnt Mitch on this very day presented with a new contract to rejoin Jimi-- if true- then the fix was in.

Did Jimi and Buddy ever play together again after this breakdown (were they even friends thereafter)?

dino77
07-03-11, 10:26 AM
^
Not as far as I've seen, he just happened to be there, so got invited, the "sessions" (a bit of lead guitar on two songs and a couple of jams), didn't take more than a few hours out of his visit, on the 15th & 17th, he flew home on the 18th/19th. He seems to have been there for quite a while ((he arrived on the 7th) and there's a short piece in NME at the time by Altham that says he spoke to him at the Speakeasy, and was in England in an effort to get the old JHE back together.

Kathy says Jimi flew in to London to see her, as he'd just found out she had gotten married and was upset.

stplsd
07-03-11, 11:05 AM
^
She would do, wouldn't she;)

MourningStar
07-03-11, 11:57 AM
danksquad, the title "What REALLY happened ..." - When it comes to Hendrix and any question starting like this, 40+ years after the fact, well ... seriously, do you REALLY expect to nail it?please let others indulge themselves in futility. if you do not like futile topic titles pls dont read them it is futile.

forgive me marcos i love you man:)Yeah, you're right.

Indulge folks!

dino77
07-05-11, 09:36 AM
^
She would do, wouldn't she;)

IMO there's no reason to doubt Kathy's story that she and Jimi hung out in London in March '70 and that he was upset about her marriage. It's possible that was not the sole reason he flew to London, maybe also to see Chas Chandler...who knows.

danksquad
07-15-11, 03:01 PM
Jimi's quotes in the March 1970 Rolling Stone interview really speak volumes about what happened:


"What had happened to the Gypsies was that Hendrix had walked offstage, right at the start of a major appearance, and hadn't appeared with them since. This was at the January Moratorium benefit at Madison Square Garden. They had barely begun when he stopped, dropped his axe, said into the microphone, "We're not quite getting it together," and walked off. This was precisely one month after Bill Graham had given them his ultimate accolade. I asked Jimi what had happened to blow the Gypsies apart.
"Maybe," he began, "I just started noticing the guitar for a change. It's like the end of a beginning maybe or something. I figure that Madison Square Garden is like the end of a big long fairy tale. Which is great. I think it's like the best ending I could possibly have come up with.

"The Band of Gypsies was outasite as far as I'm concerned. It was just going through head changes is what it was, I really couldn't tell — I don't know: I was very tired. You know, sometimes there's a lot of things that add up in your head about this and that and they might hit you at a very peculiar time, which happened to be at the peace rally, you know? And here I'd been fighting the biggest war I ever fought. In my life. Inside, you know? And like that wasn't the place to do it."

http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?1112-Jimi-Hendrix-Interview-by-Rolling-Stone-Magazine-1970

MourningStar
07-15-11, 08:16 PM
Jimi's quotes in the March 1970 Rolling Stone interview really speak volumes about what happened:


"What had happened to the Gypsies was that Hendrix had walked offstage, right at the start of a major appearance, and hadn't appeared with them since. This was at the January Moratorium benefit at Madison Square Garden. They had barely begun when he stopped, dropped his axe, said into the microphone, "We're not quite getting it together," and walked off. This was precisely one month after Bill Graham had given them his ultimate accolade. I asked Jimi what had happened to blow the Gypsies apart.
"Maybe," he began, "I just started noticing the guitar for a change. It's like the end of a beginning maybe or something. I figure that Madison Square Garden is like the end of a big long fairy tale. Which is great. I think it's like the best ending I could possibly have come up with.

"The Band of Gypsies was outasite as far as I'm concerned. It was just going through head changes is what it was, I really couldn't tell — I don't know: I was very tired. You know, sometimes there's a lot of things that add up in your head about this and that and they might hit you at a very peculiar time, which happened to be at the peace rally, you know? And here I'd been fighting the biggest war I ever fought. In my life. Inside, you know? And like that wasn't the place to do it."

http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?1112-Jimi-Hendrix-Interview-by-Rolling-Stone-Magazine-1970well that settles that!

dino77
07-16-11, 06:26 AM
well that settles that!

Jimi - the master of vagueness :).

MourningStar
07-16-11, 11:40 AM
Jimi - the master of vagueness :).Not at all - ya gotta listen to what's between the words. What he's not saying says more than what he does say. Woops, ... heh, heh, now ya got me doin' it!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/XiKano/EMOTSMILEY/thumbs-up.gif

manfree
07-16-11, 12:45 PM
Edit ; sillyness

maphora
07-16-11, 09:46 PM
People often do fall out, then make up again, but not always back to the former level of friendship. The only record I can find of Hendrix playing with Miles after the 23 January is on the 16 February with a conga player, no drummer or bass player, which is just a bit of rock an' roll fun and 'Hey Baby' followed by some meandering jamming. After this jam session Mitch and Billy arrive for their first formal session together, it appears they have been rehearsing prior to this. Mitch is on a couple of days break with the Jack Bruce & Friends tour.

Stplsd, would you let me know the details of 16 February 1970 session?

I think 'Freedom' on 2000 purple box set is also from the session.
I hear Billy, Buddy and a conga player in the jam.

Is 'Hey Baby' you mentioned 'Gypsy Boy', original of overdubbed version on "Midnight Lightning"?
I read somewhere that original 'Gypsy Boy' was recorded on 18 March 1969.
But Jimi was using Univibe throughout the song...

I'm confused!
Please set the record straight!!

dino77
07-17-11, 06:19 AM
Stplsd, would you let me know the details of 16 February 1970 session?

I think 'Freedom' on 2000 purple box set is also from the session.
I hear Billy, Buddy and a conga player in the jam.

Is 'Hey Baby' you mentioned 'Gypsy Boy', original of overdubbed version on "Midnight Lightning"?
I read somewhere that original 'Gypsy Boy' was recorded on 18 March 1969.
But Jimi was using Univibe throughout the song...

I'm confused!
Please set the record straight!!


I'll jump in - from memory Buddy, Jimi and possibly Juma recorded an instrumental take of Blue Suede Shoes and an instrumental Hey Baby. Then Mitch arrived and serious work began on Freedom - the purple box set version, with Billy, Mitch and Jimi.

The ML version of Hey Baby is allegedly from a year earlier yes.

The Uni-Vibe issue no one has been able to answer, note that New Rising Sun from October 1968 also features it, while Jimi supposedly started using it only in August 1969.

stplsd
07-22-11, 02:41 PM
The Uni-Vibe issue no one has been able to answer, note that New Rising Sun from October 1968 also features it, while Jimi supposedly started using it only in August 1969.

Presumably it was through a Leslie (or custom) swirling speaker as was Little Wing (1967):

Kramer: "[On Jimi’s guitar solo] one of the engineers had built this miniature Leslie. It was like it was built out of an Erector set and had a small 8-inch speaker that rotated. Believe it or not, the guitar solo was fed through this tiny thing, and that’s the lovely effect you hear on the lead.”

dino77
07-22-11, 04:19 PM
Presumably it was through a Leslie (or custom) swirling speaker as was Little Wing (1967):

Kramer: "[On Jimi’s guitar solo] one of the engineers had built this miniature Leslie. It was like it was built out of an Erector set and had a small 8-inch speaker that rotated. Believe it or not, the guitar solo was fed through this tiny thing, and that’s the lovely effect you hear on the lead.”


Yes, it's always possible although the guitar on NRS and Gypsy Boy doesn't sound much like Little Wing to these ears. Perhaps he received a Vibe in late '68, pre-commercial release.

maphora
07-23-11, 10:03 AM
Thank you for suggestions, dino77 and stplsd.
I also think he used vibe effects before appearance of Uni-vibe.

But I cannot stop thinking that Gypsy Boy was recorded in the last days of BOG.
Because of the feeling, atmosphere and vibes...

I also think the drummer on Freedom of purple box set (1970-02-16?) is Buddy Miles. Tight and funky.

I want to hear the entire tape of these sessions... Sorry for the off-topic!

Chris M
07-24-11, 05:05 AM
Stplsd, would you let me know the details of 16 February 1970 session?

Is 'Hey Baby' you mentioned 'Gypsy Boy', original of overdubbed version on "Midnight Lightning"?

I read somewhere that original 'Gypsy Boy' was recorded on 18 March 1969.
But Jimi was using Univibe throughout the song..

The version of "Hey Baby" recorded at the 16 February 1970 session is uncirculated. A shame as it has always been one of my studio holy grails.

Also note the raw "Gypsy Boy" from 18 March 1969 has never circulated either---the 'raw' version in circulation is less futzed with than what is on Midnight Lighting but it still has Douglas' fingerprints on it. The raw version has someone playing organ with the track.

MourningStar
07-24-11, 12:11 PM
... Also note the raw "Gypsy Boy" from 18 March 1969 has never circulated either---the 'raw' version in circulation is less futzed with ...????

2 'raw' versions?

Chris M
07-24-11, 01:36 PM
????

2 'raw' versions?

Sorry for the confusion...that didn't read like I intended. The true, un-futzed with "raw" version does not circulate. It's Jimi, Buddy and someone on organ. The bootleg version of this performance is less stepped on than the version on the Midnight Lighting LP but still has some of Douglas' audio surgery--the organ is mixed out and maybe some other changes. Of course, the Midnight Lighting version is a Frankenstein abortion.

Jboogie
12-23-11, 12:39 PM
Jimi's quotes in the March 1970 Rolling Stone interview really speak volumes about what happened:


"What had happened to the Gypsies was that Hendrix had walked offstage, right at the start of a major appearance, and hadn't appeared with them since. This was at the January Moratorium benefit at Madison Square Garden. They had barely begun when he stopped, dropped his axe, said into the microphone, "We're not quite getting it together," and walked off. This was precisely one month after Bill Graham had given them his ultimate accolade. I asked Jimi what had happened to blow the Gypsies apart.
"Maybe," he began, "I just started noticing the guitar for a change. It's like the end of a beginning maybe or something. I figure that Madison Square Garden is like the end of a big long fairy tale. Which is great. I think it's like the best ending I could possibly have come up with.

"The Band of Gypsies was outasite as far as I'm concerned. It was just going through head changes is what it was, I really couldn't tell — I don't know: I was very tired. You know, sometimes there's a lot of things that add up in your head about this and that and they might hit you at a very peculiar time, which happened to be at the peace rally, you know? And here I'd been fighting the biggest war I ever fought. In my life. Inside, you know? And like that wasn't the place to do it."

http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?1112-Jimi-Hendrix-Interview-by-Rolling-Stone-Magazine-1970

And there it is.

danksquad
12-23-11, 01:25 PM
I think when Jimi says, "I just started noticing the guitar for a change.", he means that in his mind, playing guitar was starting to feel like a burden to him. He was feeling like being a guitar player was causing him problems.

This is just a theory, trying to translate that little bit of "Jimi speak". But it reminds me of what he said on Dick Cavitt about how sometimes the more money you make, the more blues you want to sing. Judging by the statements he made, Jimi was clearly feeling disillusioned during this period of time.

MourningStar
12-24-11, 01:39 PM
I think when Jimi says, "I just started noticing the guitar for a change.", he means that in his mind, playing guitar was starting to feel like a burden to him. He was feeling like being a guitar player was causing him problems.
...My take : I 'sense' that - Hendrix understood his own limitations. He often revealed his desire to 'expand' but was frequently 'plagued' with periods where he exhausted much of the creativity that was so fruitful for him in the beginning. As innovative as Hendrix was, he did understand (and expressed it in interviews) that in order for him to produce the ever increasing ideas/music in his head, he needed to somehow formalize his musical education, the first step being to learn to read it. This no doubt would have expanded his compositional prowess (I recall Hendrix saying he wanted to 'write' for other instruments) to unimaginable places. I would analogize it as desiring to speak to an audience where you have a lot to say, but know not their language. What we have now from this period is so amazing and would have been moreso had Hendrix stayed with us to put the final touches and move on.

Though it seems that drug abuse played a major role at MSG (and elsewhere), his remaining time showed lower moments more evident on stage that in studio. Yes, he'd had enough of being a jukebox. The creative power that he was surely required some kind of discipline and appears to materialize in the studio mostly. I also have no doubt that the 'celebrity' factor played another major role in his procrastination to 'get his act together'. Time had simply run out, sadly ...

my $0.02,
peace1

Fenders Fingers
12-24-11, 03:41 PM
My take : I 'sense' that - Hendrix understood his own limitations. He often revealed his desire to 'expand' but was frequently 'plagued' with periods where he exhausted much of the creativity that was so fruitful for him in the beginning. As innovative as Hendrix was, he did understand (and expressed it in interviews) that in order for him to produce the ever increasing ideas/music in his head, he needed to somehow formalize his musical education, the first step being to learn to read it. This no doubt would have expanded his compositional prowess (I recall Hendrix saying he wanted to 'write' for other instruments) to unimaginable places. I would analogize it as desiring to speak to an audience where you have a lot to say, but know not their language. What we have now from this period is so amazing and would have been moreso had Hendrix stayed with us to put the final touches and move on.

Though it seems that drug abuse played a major role at MSG (and elsewhere), his remaining time showed lower moments more evident on stage that in studio. Yes, he'd had enough of being a jukebox. The creative power that he was surely required some kind of discipline and appears to materialize in the studio mostly. I also have no doubt that the 'celebrity' factor played another major role in his procrastination to 'get his act together'. Time had simply run out, sadly ...

my $0.02,
peace1

Everyone seems to be spending money wisely :-)

MourningStar
12-24-11, 06:36 PM
Everyone seems to be spending money wisely :-)perhaps, but not me. it's all I have & all I can give ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/XiKano/EMOTSMILEY/nada.gif

Mysticbumwipe
05-04-12, 03:37 AM
I was told personally by Jim Marron that Jimi was suffering a kind of burn out after several days of heavy cocain use with Devon. Jim said he had to go to Jimis apartment and literally drag Jimi along to the gig. I'd say the pressures of everything combined caused Jimi to 'escape'. I think there was definately a conflict for Jimi with regards to Buddy. I always have a chuckle when Jimi pretends to look at his watch when Buddy is screaming away during one of the songs (I forget which one) at the Filmore gigs.

Eddie Kramer:
"We [Jimi and Kramer] worked very closely on remixing the Band of Gypsys, and he was of two minds about that. He loved Buddy Miles, but at the same time Buddy tried to grab center stage which was a no-no..."
http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?6514-quot-I-refuse-to-think-about-him-quot-Eddie-Kramer-Interview-2001-USAToday

MourningStar
05-04-12, 09:24 AM
Eddie Kramer:
"We [Jimi and Kramer] worked very closely on remixing the Band of Gypsys, and he was of two minds about that. He loved Buddy Miles, but at the same time Buddy tried to grab center stage which was a no-no..."
http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?6514-quot-I-refuse-to-think-about-him-quot-Eddie-Kramer-Interview-2001-USAToday
odd, it's always been my impression that by this time (actually earlier I believe), Hendrix had had enough of the 'circus spotlight' and was desiring to move away from the 'limelight', wanting to showcase others. I doubt Kramer comprehending the Hendrix 'mind'. Kramer's 'no-no' was surely in reference to management, and not Hendrix.

dino77
05-04-12, 12:14 PM
Perhaps, but Buddy was uneven musically and probably too dominant to not ruffle Jimi's feathers. Two big dogs in the dog house...

MourningStar
05-04-12, 12:57 PM
Perhaps, but Buddy was uneven musically and probably too dominant to not ruffle Jimi's feathers. Two big dogs in the dog house...without management meddling, drug abuse and appropriate discipline, BOG would have mowed down everything in it's path for quite sometime. The potential was obvious.

Ezy Rider
05-05-12, 08:24 AM
Has nothing to do with management. Electric Flag was also first taken over by Buddy and then succumbed to his pressure. The same was going to happen with the BOG and Jimi knew that. He was already hanging out with Buddy since pre-Monterey times, jamming a lot with him, had Electric Flag as opening act, and would therefore be well aware of any issues that would have played concerned Billy.

In the years running up to the formation of the BOG, and looking at his involvement with Hendrix, becoming almost his de facto studio drummer when Mitch was away, and probably a whole series of jam sessions as well (and two or three concert appearances), I would argue that Buddy was carefully planning his career, and after first taking over Electric Flag, then ditching it at a time when the Experience also had fallen apart, he probably thought it a perfect career move to join the BOG and become Hendrix' new, permanent drummer. Alas.

MourningStar
05-05-12, 02:30 PM
Has nothing to do with management. Electric Flag was also first taken over by Buddy and then succumbed to his pressure. The same was going to happen with the BOG and Jimi knew that. He was already hanging out with Buddy since pre-Monterey times, jamming a lot with him, had Electric Flag as opening act, and would therefore be well aware of any issues that would have played concerned Billy.

In the years running up to the formation of the BOG, and looking at his involvement with Hendrix, becoming almost his de facto studio drummer when Mitch was away, and probably a whole series of jam sessions as well (and two or three concert appearances), I would argue that Buddy was carefully planning his career, and after first taking over Electric Flag, then ditching it at a time when the Experience also had fallen apart, he probably thought it a perfect career move to join the BOG and become Hendrix' new, permanent drummer. Alas.yup! many theories abound, some closer to the truth than others.

stplsd
05-06-12, 12:43 PM
I would argue that Buddy was carefully planning his career, and after first taking over Electric Flag, then ditching it at a time when the Experience also had fallen apart.

Was it not his own band, The Buddy Miles Express, that fell apart immediately prior to him becoming part of the BOG's? The comment in Rolling Stone, below, makes out as if some members voted with their feet and left him, rather than the other way round.
Interesting that JH made these comments, in an earlier interview around 8 June 69 in LA, when "working on his "Sky Church" [a provisional name for the Gypsy Sun group, (having initially been introduced as 'the Jimi Hendrix Experience' ) he also introduced them (almost in the same breath as 'BOG' as well as (later) 'Sky Church'] project" with Billy and Albert Allen, who is also quoted:

JH: “In the future the group will not be called the Jimi Hendrix Experience or the Jimi Hendrix anything. Also, it will probably be larger in size, including writers and other vocalists as well as additional musicians, and will be performing free or on a donation basis as often as possible.
It’s a sky church sort of thing, I don’t like the word "church," but "until we find something better, we'll have to use that, so we can keep identification some kind of way.”
"It’s best not to harp upon us—the personalities and all that. lt's the whole thing. what the whole thing is trying to get across. I’d like to get ahold of the Buddy Miles group and call them "The Freedom Express* - featuring Buddy Miles" [a we hint as to JH's opinion of a certain trait of Buddy's? Looks rather that they took the hint;)]. Billy (Cox) will be our bass player. l'd like to get three soul sisters, regardless of whether they're Italian or Irish or whatever, so long as they got feeling. It's feeling first. We have this family thing we're trying to get together, and then the money will come. Nowadays too many musicians think of the money and the image fïrst, before they figure out what they're trying to get across. I’ll be working with other songwriters Albert is the first."
AA:The first time the new Hen­drix combo will appear will be July 11th. at the Apollo Theater in Harlem1. I’ll be serving as the promoter. The performance will be a benefit for Biafra Calls, a Harlem based charitable organisation, and also will feature Buddy Miles and Big Maybelle.
JH:I’m introducing the Sky Church at the Apollo because l'd rather experiment up there than down in the Village . . . you get very bad scenes down there; everybody cops off each other so you don’t get nothing real.
"You go uptown to hear real music in the first place, right?"

1A contract for this exisits, although it only has "July", the particular day being left out. Is it genuine? It certainly looks the part. Possibly provisional? Date to be decided later? It was cancelled anyway as was their later, booked, short tour. The cancellation of this short tour cost JH a lot of hard cash! Contracts were signed and dated and advertising posters printed.

Saturday 15 November 1969
USA
ROLLING STONE (#46), (Page 4) ‘Random Notes’ . . . Buddy Miles Express has been derailed, the rhythm section have split, the horns recording under the name Freedom Express, and a troubled Buddy trying to get at least himself together in New York. What happened? “You know how Buddy is,” said one of the Express. “Impossible, man.”. . .

Remember articles in a monthly are often at least a month out of date, I've seen posts for gigs in RS and Billboard that were already played a month previous!;)
This, I assume, is before him teaming up with JH & Billy as there is no mention of them?

There is also a comment by Buddy in a later interview that the BOG was "my band" etc.

stplsd
05-06-12, 01:18 PM
Eddie Kramer:
"We [Jimi and Kramer] worked very closely on remixing the Band of Gypsys, and he was of two minds about that. He loved Buddy Miles, but at the same time Buddy tried to grab center stage which was a no-no..."
http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?6514-quot-I-refuse-to-think-about-him-quot-Eddie-Kramer-Interview-2001-USAToday



Billy: “Jimi truly loved Buddy, but he was the star. He was the boss. This was an unspoken issue, but all you have to do is listen to any Band Of Gypsys performance and you will hear it. We musicians have to be careful not to cross these boundary lines. You have to pay homage to Caesar. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Sometimes that did not happen. That disturbed Jimi, and I think Buddy finally became aware of this by the end."

Billy is always a nice guy, he ain't gonna spill directly on his mates (or even Jeffery - he's usually couched as 'management') but occasionally he let's slip (gently) for those that are really interested;) There are lots of comments he makes where it's not too hard to see what he's hinting at

It seems pretty obvious to me that, sometimes, Billy 'defends' Buddy by making slight, oblique allusions towards his accusations against Jeffery being vaguely "possible," but not as Buddy described it, he says JH was pretty wrecked before they got there and hints, not very convincingly, that the fact that he was sitting next to Mike was reason enough for suspicion!!! Maybe Mike was 'wrecked' too? (They were, it has been claimed, 'acid buddies' after all), and giving fairly unconvincing 'lip service' to the 'race' question, though essentially backing off from agreeing totally, and stating the opposite on occasion (as Buddy himself has!)ie if he was sure why, many years after the event, would he not just spit it out? Billy also appears to be very upset about being twice "spiked" himself - when Jeffery was definitely not there.
In his unpublished rough draft, which we are told has been 'leaked' to certain JH cognoscenti. The first time was at the Boiceville house where he was definitely spiked (but then everyone was complaining about getting spiked in those days. According to Grace Slick and others, acid was everywhere, "they" probably "thought" "ha-ha!"*). But in the final instance (over a year later), he alludes in the vaguest terms that it was someone close to him, that persuaded him to take some of his own volition - "tempted" into it?
A couple of "live" recording "sessions" blown out of all proportion, due to Buddy's 'drama queen' ego after he, eventually, had to accept it was just a temporary gig after all (to make Chalpins LP), even though he has stated it was just such! and Jimi getting a bit wasted at a ONE OFF CHARITY GIG - storm in a f'ing tea cup springs to mind, sold a few trashy 'Rock' books and mags though!

*Monsterous behavior really, but the way Grace talks it seems to have been just accepted, generally, as a hazard of the job, but a bit of a nuisance though!

MourningStar
05-07-12, 10:00 AM
... Recall too that in a 1972 interview Chas claimed that it was he who had been deadset against having Buddy M in the band. ...orly1

Ezy Rider
06-20-12, 09:54 PM
Bob Levine(office assistant,Michae1 JefferyManage- menl,Inc):
"He was at his worst.He was out of it so badly_he never should have
done the show in the condition he was in''

Gerry Stickells:“He didn't want to do the show.I had to convince him to perform...''

Alfred G.Aronowitz(reviewer):'The crowd had already gotten
twice its money's worth when Jimi Hen- drix stopped playing
in the middle of his second num- ber,said'That's what happens
, that's what happens when Earth fucks with space .
Never forget that,that's what happens'and then sat down in front
of his three monster amplifiers.
“Then , when drummer Buddy Miles started telling the audience,'Listen,it
seems as though that uh,we're not uh,quite getting it together here ,
but just uh,give us a little bit more time because it has been hard and
uh, things aren't exactly...1 guess they're not exactly right okay yet,
so just bear with us for a few minutes and we'11 try and see if we can
get something together,' Jimigot up,put his guitar down and walked offstage.
“It was just after3a.m.andthe Winter Festival for Peace has been radiating
through the Gardenlike a pocket Woodstock for almost seven hours.Peace?
You can tell it that it's$75,000[or$100,000,according to Romng Stone,6 March 1970]
richer today if anybody knows where it is_.
“Jimi retired to his dressing room and shut the door. 'He's a perfectionist,'
was all that his manager,Mike Jeffery,would say.Buddy kept telling the audience
that Jimiwas coming back[but he didn't]”

David Henderson:“Many musicians on the New York scene were backstage.
It was not the usual profession- ally organized con-cert.
Bi11Graham would have never allowed so many unaccounted for people
backstage mingling with the performers_ Jimi stood with his entourage...
He had been given some powerful and horrible acid by someone he did not know.
ln the hectic rush of backstage jast before showtime, Jimi's head hung down_”
(JimiHendrix) Voodoo Child Of The Aquarian Age by David Henderson,p389).

Billy Cox:“Buddy and I_went into the dressing room, and there was Jimi.
He was not in the best shape. Jimi was sitting next to Jeffery,and we
knew it wasn't going to work_”.

Question:“Did Jefferygive him the bad acid?”
Buddy Miles:“Oh God!Yes he did.He was crunched down,and it spaced him
out a bit,and it made him para- noid - and it made him very paranoid on stage''

Question:'What did happen backstage[afterwards]?”
Buddy Miles:“He sat down for a few minutes and relaxed,and he was
back to his normalself.But it was bothersome because it was a plant_I
was never a really true lover of Michael Jeffery anyway , because he
was like a Jekyll and Hyde_”.

John McDermott:“No other member of Hendrix's management team present
at the concert accepts the sabotage sto-ry_Considering Jeffery's personal
invest- ment in the concert[he had the whole event filmed and
recorded-C.G.land his notorious aversion to negative publicity,
it is highly improbable that his motive was to embarrass his meal ticket
before a sold-out au-dience”

Alan Douglas:“I was the one who brought him[Jimi] there.Peter Yarrow of
Peter,Pau1&Mary called me and asked if I would.1ca11ed Jimiand he agreed to it.
Sol was with him that night.Everything seemed to be perfectly normal backstage
before the show.It sur- prised me as much as it surprised everybody else
when he aborted the show_
“I was worried because he stumbled off the stage and fell into the crowd on the side.
When I went backstage to see if he was okay, Jimi was sitting there playing his
guitar,singing and having a good time.And smiling_ Allot the historians like to
say his manager gave him bad acid.But there was no evidence of that.He just freaked.
You've got to remember that he was25or26 years old.He was a kid in the middle of
all this mad- ness . That was difficult for him to handle.So for him to freak out
once in a while was normal_”.

Jim Marron(manager of “The Scene”;later working at“Electric Lady Studios”):
“I was embarrassed . React- ing in such a way , after dealing with hecklers
through- out his career , was pathetic .
This wasn't the Hendrix we knew or supported_”.

David Crosby(guitarist):“Hendrix's first and only public appear-ance
against the war in Vietnam,and it marked a major turnaround for him.
Jimi's decision to oppose U.S.involvement in Vietnam was very signifi-
cant.First,he was the premier musician of our times, and second,
he came to being a musician after serving for three[slot years as a
paratrooper in the foist Air-borne.
In1967,Hendrix made a few public comments in support of the vvar,
primaJily because he believed it was an important place to take
a strong stand against the threat of world communist domination_.
“Although the symbolism of Hendrix's appearing at the Winter
Festival for Peace was very important to the antiwar movement,
his performance there was one of the saddest public displays of
his career_.
“It was left to poor Peter YarTow to placate a monu- mentally
disappointed crowd of Hendrix fans who had waited seven hours for almost
nothing.Peter says he told them how committed to the cause Jimi obviously
was for trying to play even though he had the'flit'_''.

Michael Jetfery:“Musically it wasn't going down well between Jimi
and Buddy_so I had the difficult posi- tion of getting rid of,removing
Buddy Miles from Jimi_I told Buddy the trip was over.ldid get the fee1ing
that he took it very personal to me.We argued a bit and we shouted a bit.
I think at that time,he felt that he wasn't getting his share from the group.
He felt like he was a star too,and I regarded him as essentially a supporting
man for Jimi_'.

Johnny Winter(guitarist):“When he had to stop playing I really cried
because I could see it happening to me,I could see it happening to him,
and I loved Jimi, respected hum as a person and musician more than
anybody_They forced him into working,keeping him all fucked up on
dope where hecouldn't really figure things out for himself.
They didn't care about him as a person,they wanted him as a commodity ,
he was to be bought and sold...”

Jimi Hendrix:“I figured that Madison Square Garden is like the end of
a big long fairy tale,you know . Which is great,you know.
I think it's the best ending I could possibly have come up with_
he band was outasite as far as I am concemed.1t was really - just
nothing but going through head changes,going through changes_.
“I don't know;twas very tired.You know , sometimes there's a lot of
things that add up to your head about this and that and they might
hit you at a very peculiar time, which happened to be at that peace
ra11y,you know? And here I am fighting the biggest war ever fought
in my life-inside,you know?And like uh,it wasn't the place to do it...”

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Hendrix-Jimi-478/2011/5/Winter-Festival-Peace-Mad.htm