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Thread: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

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    Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    I'd never heard of this until I saw a reference on p59 of Foxy Papers...

    Hey Woman by Kenny Bernard recorded at Olympic Studios in 1966

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6uhRY1veco

    The recording is documented in Kenny Bernard's book "You Came Into My Life" which is online in Google books, pages 77-80.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LIYJ721EmUMC

    paulw
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    Last edited by paulw; 03-10-14 at 01:49 PM. Reason: moer suitable title

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Hmm, the entire book was readable on Google this morning but it's now locked down to a few pages - I'll try and get a copy of the relevant paragraphs.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    I don't know if the question is whether Jimi/Chas plagiarized the Hey Joe arrangement from Hey Woman. Wouldn't it be Tim Rose that got the arrangement from Hey Woman. Isn't the question whether the original Hey Joe (Billy Roberts 1962) was plagiarized by Hey Woman at Olympic in 1966?

    Billy Roberts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sARMCTnDcbE

    Kenny Bernard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6uhRY1veco

    Tim Rose http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inal Hey Joe
    Last edited by jhendrixfanatic; 03-10-14 at 04:31 PM.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    The backing vocals do indeed sound plagiarized by Chas and Jimi!
    Last edited by kees1954; 03-11-14 at 02:21 PM.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Hmmm, very interesting post man, thanks.

    On Billy Roberts version at around 2:06 it sounds like the "Hendrix Chord"... interesting

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Is it plagiarism when your covering a song?

    Anyway, we all know the true originator of Hey Joe..... Robert Plant!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgb_yIKsje4
    Last edited by jhendrixfanatic; 03-11-14 at 10:23 PM.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhendrixfanatic View Post
    Is it plagiarism when your covering a song?

    Anyway, we all know the true originator of Hey Joe..... Robert Plant!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgb_yIKsje4
    No, and also you cannot copyright an arrangement. It's not illegal to mimic an arragement.
    However, it's illegal to take lyrics and music copyrighted by someone and put your own name on it, as Led Zeppelin did on numerous occasions, speaking of Plant.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    No. Chas said he heard Hendrix playing Tim Roses' arrangement when he first saw him! And that he was determined to record that version.
    Kenny Bernard states that he himself used Tim Rose's version (also), which he clearly did, and then goes on to talk bollocks. Was Bernard's version even released? What date was it actually recorded? (interest only, as it is closer to Rose's primitive version musically than Jimi's is and Bernard has his own lyrics.) Two different people use the same 1966 arrangement by Tim Rose shortly after hearing it, and both record their versions in 1966 London, except Bernard makes up his own lyrics - So what. If Jimi "plagiarized" Bernard why didn't he use his lyrics? He used the Hey Joe lyrics, so therefore he used Rose's Hey Joe - as both Chas & Jimi acknowledged.
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Does anyone know when the Billy Roberts YouTube clip linked to above was recorded? There are anecdotal references to live recordings from that time but I haven't found anything about a released recording, only reference I can find is that it was copyrighted in 1962.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kees1954 View Post
    The backing vocals do indeed sound plagiarized by Chas and Jimi!
    No. They don't, they sound just the same as Rose's, ie just a vague 'ahh-ahh', whereas Jimi's version they actually sing words.
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by dino77 View Post
    to mimic an arragement.
    However, it's illegal to take lyrics and music copyrighted by someone and put your own name on it.
    That would be "use" an arrangement. Jimi acknowledged he used Tim Rose's arrangement. Rose on the other hand falsely claimed the song was "traditional" to claim royalties for his arrangement, and Dino Valente falsely claimed it was himself who wrote it. Jimi's releases followed this line of claims, being first credited as "traditional", then by 'Dino Valente' and eventually by the, rightful, Billy Roberts. Though Roberts himself possibly took the basic song from his ex-girlfriend Neila Miller's 1955 song "Baby, Please Don’t Go To Town"? A tangled web
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by stplsd View Post

    Though Roberts himself possibly took the basic song from his ex-girlfriend Neila Miller's 1955 song "Baby, Please Don’t Go To Town"? A tangled web
    possibly, possibly not. easy to see the connection but just as easy to say we have little if any connection other than a "going to town"

    Niela Miller:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN7otqp3MfQ

    either way, interesting to hear Millers recording
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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenders Fingers View Post
    "A tangled web"

    My "tangled web" refers to the various claims mentioned, not just Neila Milller's, if it was just her it wouldn't be, it would just be a dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenders Fingers View Post
    possibly, possibly not.
    Either way they both mean 'possibly', that's why I used 'possibly'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenders Fingers View Post
    easy to see the connection
    Yes. But it all depends on the date. So far no hard evidence it is prior to Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenders Fingers View Post
    but just as easy to say we have little if any connection other than an "going to town"
    Eh? No. There's the music, the style, the killing etc.
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulw View Post
    Does anyone know when the Billy Roberts YouTube clip linked to above was recorded?
    More to the point, does anyone know who is actually singing it, heh-heh
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Here are a few paragraphs from Kenny Bernard's book...

    Within 24 hours he (Mervyn Conn) had booked a studio with one of the top arrangers at the time, Reg Guest, working on it. Mervyn also got a big orchestra in to record the song at the renowned Olympic Sound Studios in central London.

    In those days you didn't have to worry so much about copyright as it was often very difficult to find out who wrote the original versions. All you had to do was change just one word and the song was yours. So I was told to change Hey Joe to Hey Woman. I didn't completely agree with this but after the recording session had been paid for along with a top orchestra and arranger, I felt I couldn't really argue about it. In fact, the whole production cost a lot of money. I had about four backing singers for that recording and it all went perfectly.

    But unfortunately my naivety was to prove my downfall. What happend next has somewhat haunted me ever since. An engineer working in the studio said he really liked what I had done and asked if he could borrow the recording. I stupidly said yes and unbeknown to me he played the recording to his friend, who just so happended to be Chas Chandler, manager of Jimi Hendrix.

    We were told that my recording was originally scheduled to break into Radio London's Fab 40, the 1960s equivalent of the Top 40.

    Jimi recorded Hey Joe and that was put in the Fab 40 instead. My Hey Woman was blown out of the water.

    paulw

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulw View Post
    Here are a few paragraphs from Kenny Bernard's book...

    Jimi recorded Hey Joe and that was put in the Fab 40 instead. My Hey Woman was blown out of the water.

    paulw

    Thanks, but this excerpt was already available from the link you kindly posted. It dosn't make Bernard's extremely dodgy, illogical claims any better. And no one has come up with any answers to my legitimate questions, yet.
    One being, was this single ever actually released. Only an advanced copy has been seen, so far. His claim that Jimi's release sank his is just nonsense, its not even the same song! Just the same arrangement of the tune, ie they both closely followed Tim Roses's arrangment of the tune, including using backing vocals. Jimi used the actual lyrics though and vastly improved the instrumentation, backing lyric etc. The plagiarist here is Bernard who stole the tune and portrayed it as being his own composition, as he admits. Where's the evidence that his song was going to be a Radio London Fab 40 entry? If his story about Jimi's song being chosen over his is accurate, they must have been released at virtually the same instant! It seems that appearing in the Radio London 'Fab 40', and the accompanying high number of plays, was often down to shady back-room deals, it certainly was not down to sales .
    Did Bernard not hear Jimi playing Hey Joe and decide to use it himself? Anyway it was a popular song to cover and had already been covered by several well known groups, as well as by Tim Rose, who's version was the most recent, also the legal composer credit seems to have become unclear at this time making it tempting to claim the royalties by various means.
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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhendrixfanatic View Post
    "Does anyone know when the Billy Roberts YouTube clip linked to above was recorded?"

    Billy Roberts copyrighted his version in 1962, whether it was recorded that same year, I dunno.
    Quote Originally Posted by stplsd View Post
    More to the point, does anyone know who is actually singing it, heh-heh
    ie Who says its Billy Roberts singing this? What evidence is there?

    I read it on Youtube - it must be true
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Hey Joe was a cover version by JHE, and credited to Billy Roberts. So no not plagiarised. I don't think a credit was claimed for Hendrix.

    Presumably the JHE would have just got their performance fees for it.

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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pali Gap View Post
    Hey Joe was a cover version by JHE, and credited to Billy Roberts. So no not plagiarised. I don't think a credit was claimed for Hendrix.
    On the initial UK/West German pressings not only did "he" claim credit (Yameta claiming the publishing), just like Tim Rose, but the Experience were not even mentioned, just "Jimi Hendrix".
    Interesting date on the A side, seems like an early promotion copy, such as those played on Radio London, it appeared in their charts shortly after this date
    Last edited by stplsd; 02-29-16 at 09:19 AM.
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    Re: Did Chas/Jimi plagiarise the arrangement of Hey Joe?

    Here are some more copies, (Trad. Arr. Hendrix) [Pub. “Yameta”] and the ‘B’ side Stone Free (Pub. “Pall Mall”. Pall Mall music was the publishing wing of Radio London), with no mention of the Experience until later copies, but as you can see the other label details remained the same:
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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