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Thread: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

  1. #41
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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    And as for Odell upstaging Richard...
    Odell also had his own hit records.
    What hit records? Never heard of any George records, never mind hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    And look at his band. He has two guitarists, bass and a drummer plus a horn section. If this is the band that Jimi was allowed to sit in with on the tour and later join then Richard would have had THREE guitarists counting Jimi.
    That's a backing band of nine people, (see the following quote from Sando, who says he had two 'lead' guitarists which implies a rhythym guitarists also)
    That's assuming one of the other guitarists hadn't left and Jimi was replacing him

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    E.g. how about the gig where LR was threatened by the organiser
    with a gun under his chin in the lift with Jim, Chas Chandler + Eric Burdon present.
    This story is almost entirely exaggeration and false addition, invented over forty years after the event by Altham who wasn't even there. By his own admission his first trip to the US was for Monterey Pop. It was originally told by Burdon and had no Hendrix, no gun, merely a verbal threat from the cop, even this being without doubt a wild exaggeration (if indeed the whole thing is not just fabrication), no Chandler, NO etc etc. merely Richard having a temper tantrum in a lift in which there was just Richard's 'aide', Levine, Burdon and a cop. Only much later this anonymous 'aide' became Hendrix, later still the gun story. The story is well contentious as there is no other record of the Animals playing the Paramount on a bill with Richard, Burdon tells it as if the Animals were headliners, when it appears to have been Soupy Sales as headliner and there's no mention of the Animals. Bob Levine (a roady) was in no position to sack Little Richard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    Look how he sat in with that women singer Ellen Mc Ilwaine at the same time when he was playing there with the Blue Flames supporting John Hammond at the Cafe Au Go Go in 1966.
    Allegedly, according to McIlwaine only, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    (e.g. Delaney Bramlett's band for three weeks .
    One gig only at the Teen Expo jamming on a couple of songs, more like.
    Last edited by stplsd; 02-04-17 at 12:21 PM.
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    I assume that simply because the stage set featured a RED CARPET and THRONE. Obviously, what Hartley saw was part of the show by Little Richard and his ROYAL COMPANY.
    Fine. That's highly possible, likely even.
    But even assuming that, there is no mention of LR on the stage is there?
    And if this is the opening part of his show, then couldn't we expect the MC to be a part of that?
    Why the obstinate refusal to accept that as a possibility?
    If this is the opening of the show for LR then at some time
    wouldn't you expect the MC to be there and to conclude by saying something
    like "Ladies and gentleman, and now, the inistigator, the originator,
    the architect of rock n' roll...."
    etc., etc.

    The innocent suggestion is only that if GG Odell was still MC
    when Goddard took these photos,
    then why couldn't this be a photo of that part of the show?

    If you watched the youtube videos I attached of LR in the summer of '64
    you will see visual proof of how LR dressed for his shows
    prior to the blond-wigged, home-made-amazing-out-fits dressed GG joining his tour.

    I've always understood that GG was MC on that Dec '64 - Jan 65 tour.
    If he was't then I accept that this is Richard.
    But if there is any room for doubt about that or of Goddard's dates/memories
    then I still hope that Roby will email the photo to Odell and ask him if its himself.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    Fine. That's highly possible, likely even.
    But even assuming that, there is no mention of LR on the stage is there?
    And if this is the opening part of his show, then couldn't we expect the MC to be a part of that?
    Why the obstinate refusal to accept that as a possibility?
    It's not obstinancy, it's just common sense. There is no mention of Richard as Hartley's account was of the opening of the show, when Richard hadn't yet taken the stage. It's an age-old showbiz ploy, send out the band first, to build up the excitement. There is no mention either of an extravagantly dressed MC! And do you really think Richard would have a silver clad MC to announce him? We know that Richard performed in a silver sequined jacked and a blonde wig (see video). It was his act. Nobody would let an MC or support act put on the same show or wear the same cloths as the main attraction. You never out-shine the star. Utter bollocks.
    It's DEFINATELY Little Richard in the photo and I simply don't understand why you persist with this Odell thing.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    I am 95% convinced its LR, but to be 100% convinced I would still like to see the other photos Goddard took at that same show.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    ^
    It could well be George, as 'mysticbumwipe' surmises, but that is to suppose Goddard, a major Richard fan by all accounts, mistook George for Richard. The outfit and the hair are much gaudier than Richard's usual style around this time going by all the other available photos - apart from the bizarre wig/hairdo [?] he is wearing on bandstand - his long (black) hair/wig?, white suit, medallion and sparkly shoes seemingly his most farout garb, until quite a bit later. Some more dateable photos would certainly be welcome. Oh, just remembered there's the one where he his wearing an identical white/silver? sparkly jacket at the Paramount in NY shortly before Jimi finally left his Royal Company
    Last edited by stplsd; 04-29-11 at 04:05 AM.
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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    "...it's just common sense."
    Ok. I accept that you think so.
    We will have to agree to disagree there then, as it it actually strikes me as quite illogical to deny the possibility of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    There is no mention of Richard as Hartley's account was of the opening of the show, when Richard hadn't yet taken the stage. It's an age-old showbiz ploy, send out the band first, to build up the excitement.
    Yes. That is not in contention.

    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    ...do you really think Richard would have a silver clad MC to announce him?
    Yes. We KNOW he actually did hire George. And we have quotes from him describing George's act. So it does appear he did do just exactly that.

    "...He had been working as a guitarist with
    a feller called Gorgeous george,
    a black guy who sported a blond wig
    and wore these fabulous clothes

    which he had made himself."

    -- Little Richard

    Henry Nash (Little Richards tour manager)
    "Gorgeous George asked me if I would allow Jimmy Hendrix
    to come on the tour as his [Little Richard's?] valet.
    I saw the manager of the package and we gave Jimmy the oppurtunity
    to load the bus as Gorgeous George's helper.
    I will never forget Jimmy loading his belongings on the bus.
    His guitar was wrapped in a potato sack. It had only five strings on it."


    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    We know that Richard performed in a silver sequined jacked and a blonde wig (see video). It was his act.
    Yeah. But it was his act after he borrowed it from Gorgeous George Odell.
    You didn't watch the video links I provided then of LR's act
    and how he dressed just a few months before Jimi and Odell were on the tour with him, then?
    Richard dressed in suits with a shirt and tie (just as he did in the fifties) and had short hair.
    After Odell was on the tour he vamped it up a la Gorgeous George.

    "I remember seeing Gorgeous George as M.C.
    for so many rythym and blues reviews in the 60's.
    He would introduce the acts and call himself, '
    the most beautiful man in the world' even before Ali.
    And he always dressed so sharp,
    even better than most of the acts.


    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    Nobody would let an MC or support act put on the same show or wear the same cloths as the main attraction.
    But he most likely didn't have the same clothes as the MC at that time (see the videos).
    The MC made 'amazing' clothes himself and later set up a clothes making business to the stars in the Atlanta area as other acts started ordering clothes from him.


    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    You never out-shine the star. Utter bollocks.
    Hardly utter bollocks.
    That often happens on the road.
    Jimi did it to Jefferson airplane at the Fillmore after Monterey
    so that they cried off being the headliners for the last few dates.
    Little Richard reputedly did it to John Lennon at that Toronto '69 festival. (After Richard did a blistering show leaving the crowd cheering for more Lennon watchng from the wings of the stage apparently puked up in fear of having to follow that.)
    And Jimi himself complained that Vanilla Fudge regularly did it to him on a tour I think in Sept 1968 and he wanted them off the tour. Etc., etc.

    So its quite possibile and in fact extremely likely (imho)
    that Odell was a classy act and that greatly influenced Richard
    who maybe even bought some of the "amazing" stage clothes
    off of him as well as copied his wig wearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    It's DEFINATELY Little Richard in the photo and I simply don't understand why you persist with this Odell thing.
    I am quite OK with people having a different opinion on this photo.
    I'm even coming around to accepting that it may well be LR myself, after Roby's recent post.
    So forgive my persistence but I do find it hard to take silently when people argue
    from a position of what I see as ignorance and illogicallity.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    ... So forgive my persistence but I do find it hard to take silently when people argue
    from a position of what I see as ignorance and illogicallity.
    Forgiveness denied. Your 'persistence' is your flaw and you would even question Odell's memory if even he himself denied it was him on the photo. How the mods allowed you to get away with calling the membership ignorant and illogical, A SECOND TIME, well ... they know my position.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    For more on GG read "Dream Boggie." GG stayed in Atlanta for awhile after Jimi split with LR.

    GG went on to other large package tours in 1965. GG was a hustler and a tour with just LR would have been too tame (read Dream Boogie).

    Goddard is still around. He'll tell you the same story you can read in "Harlem of the West" of how Jimi got in the way when he was trying to take LR photos at the Fillmore.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticbumwipe View Post
    But he most likely didn't have the same clothes as the MC at that time (see the videos).
    But we know from that recently exposed video that Richard was wearing wigs and dressing in bright clothes while Jimi was in the band! So, Richard wouldn't diminish his own visual stage impact by coming on dressed like the MC.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by purple jim View Post
    But we know from that recently exposed video that Richard was wearing wigs and dressing in bright clothes while Jimi was in the band! So, Richard wouldn't diminish his own visual stage impact by coming on dressed like the MC.
    OK. But that video is from March 6, 1965.
    So the crucial thing then would be the exact timeline: when was Odell the MC and when did he leave the tour. When was the photo taken, at which gig. Was it February 21, 1965? Is there any room for that to be incorrect? I now understand that there is very little.

    According to Roby, he's saying that Odell was no longer the MC on the tour starting Jan '65.
    I hadn't understood that before - I thought GG was on that tour.
    And that was why it seemed highly possible that it could have been a photo of the MC with Jimi.
    Anyway, now that it has been made clear that GG was no longer the MC in Feb '65 I acknowledge that possibility (of this being a photo of the MC + Jimi) does not exist.
    OK? :-)

    This I assume means that Odell was only the MC for a month or so in November-December of '64.
    In which case applying an argument that LR wouldn't come on dressed like his MC anytime after December '64 doesn't stand up.
    Er... you still haven't looked at those vids of LR from May and July 64 then? ;-/

    Anyway, it does appear that this pic is of Little Richard.
    I accept that and admit I was wrong in suggesting it was GG Odell.

    I concede thanks to the the dates provided by Steve Roby/Lostarchives.

    But I'm not changing my mind on the basis of an argument maintaining LR wouldn't allow a flash MC on the tour.
    I think that is very clearly not correct. LR did do exactly that.
    And it seems was heavily influenced by him AFTERWARDS.
    I don't understand why that is so repugnant an idea, that LR (and Jimi according to Larry Lee) were influenced by GG Odell? :-(
    Last edited by Mysticbumwipe; 04-18-11 at 04:36 AM.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchives View Post
    For more on GG read "Dream Boogie." GG stayed in Atlanta for a while after Jimi split with LR.
    GG went on to other large package tours in 1965. GG was a hustler and a tour with just LR would have been too tame (read Dream Boogie).
    Goddard is still around. He'll tell you the same story you can read in "Harlem of the West" of how Jimi got in the way when he was trying to take LR photos at the Fillmore.
    If GG was no longer on the tour when LR came to the Fillmore, then I accept that this is LR.
    Have you seen any of the other photos that Goddard says he took at this gig?
    That would certainly clinch this discussion beyond all shadow of doubt.
    Last edited by Mysticbumwipe; 04-18-11 at 04:38 AM.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchives View Post
    For more on GG read "Dream Boogie." GG stayed in Atlanta for awhile after Jimi split with LR. GG went on to other large package tours in 1965. GG was a hustler and a tour with just LR would have been too tame (read Dream Boogie).
    I just read parts of that book. Interestingly Guralnick writes that it was really hard to pin down GG on specific dates. Which confirms what I have stated before, that much of this info is not airtight truth, and just because someone was there doesn't mean what they say is 100% correct:

    "After ...having any number of conversations with Gorgeous George on the subject, I'm still unable to nail down specific dates." - Peter Guralnick

    Interesting also that he acknowledges that BOTH Gorgeous Georges (the white wrestler and the black entertainer) influenced Little Richard, as well as James Brown and the boxer Mohammed Ali.

    And he also has quotes maintaining that GG Odell frequently did outshine the headliners and acts he was introducing in dress-style and flamboyant flashiness.

    Still, I'm not changing my mind back. I still acknowledge that this is a pic of Mr. Penniman :-)
    Last edited by Mysticbumwipe; 04-18-11 at 04:39 AM.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Film Of Little Richard performing with a blonde wig.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orqqozn8dSs

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    The shape of the face looks the same in this photo.

    Last edited by RobbieRadio; 04-18-11 at 05:35 PM.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Hey Robbie, we're done. It is Little Richard in the photo with Jimi.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    I'm sure this won't end the debate, but I just asked Rosa Lee Brooks. She states unequivocally that this is Richard Penniman in the photo. She says that "Gorgeous George" was a White guy with blonde hair. That is also my recollection. He used to be a wrestler. If it isn't Little Richard, then it's some other flambouyant R&B guy...naw.... it's The Right Reverend Penniman.

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Quote Originally Posted by r_crumb View Post
    I'm sure this won't end the debate, but I just asked Rosa Lee Brooks. She states unequivocally that this is Richard Penniman in the photo. She says that "Gorgeous George" was a White guy with blonde hair. That is also my recollection. He used to be a wrestler. If it isn't Little Richard, then it's some other flambouyant R&B guy...

    OK. Right. Hmmmm?
    So Jimi went on a tour playing guitar for a white wrestler?
    Ok, thanks for that, Herr Crumb.

    (Mourningstar, do you see what I was going on about now? ;-)

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    Photo of Gorgeous George on stage:
    Frank Zappa: "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    ^Great!

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    Re: George Odell (or Richard Penniman)?

    ^
    Compare George's hair with the program photo you gave us, it's very similar, just a bit ruffled from his exertions. The suit in the program photo is as wild, dress wise, as he got it seems. The stuff about blond wigs appears to be a confusion with the wrestler, and/or Richard
    Last edited by stplsd; 02-04-17 at 12:20 PM.
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